HAGANE NO RENKINJUTSUSHI
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Will Hawkeye Be Killed?, Will Riza be used to make Roy open the gate??If so, how?
Arantzain
post Nov 12 2006, 01:47 AM
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"Roy and Riza in the movie" . . . le sigh.

I'm sorry, I'm working on a fiction that pulls from the movie for its startpoint. I have had to do BACKFLIPS to explain what Roy was thinking, haring off to the North and whining for two years. So this is sort of a subject-of-momentary-angst for me.

As for the original subject of the post:

1) I don't want her to die. So I am going to assume she's going to, and refuse to get my hopes up.

2) From the author's perspective, this is the time when the stakes need to go up dramatically. Death is a good way of introducing tension. [spoiler]To put it in perspective: Hughes died in 15. Greed and Co. died in 31-ish. Ling <arguably> died in 54. Each death has ushered in major plot twists and significant diversions --and in fact, we're due for another. I'm voting for Scar. tongue.gif[/spoiler]

* * *

All that said --I don't think Riza's going to die. Yet, at least.

I agree with Summoner Colette that Riza's death would aggrandize her character out of proportion. She is a protagonist, not -the- protagonist. Martyring her now would be counterproductive.

Attendant on this: Riza is incredibly useful where she is. If the author has information she wants to sneak us about the Homunculi (and especially if she wants to work on our perceptions of Bradley) this is the natural avenue for that information.

Similarly, Riza is a better hostage than she is a corpse. I know this has been said, but I don't think it can be emphasized enough. As long as Bradley has Riza, he has Roy's measure.

Right now Roy's goal is beyond his reach, and so he's can still afford to be moved by emotion. When Bradley pulls the "Hawkeye" string, then, Roy responds. But if the Flame Alchemist gets within spitting distance of overthrowing the Homunculi, do you really think that he'll falter at a threat to Riza? (And do you really believe Riza would allow him to?)

If Bradley wants to know what Roy's up to, all he's got to do is exert a little pressure on Riza. Depending on how quickly Roy responds, Bradley will be able to gage his progress.

* * *

Anyway: I think we're all in agreement that SOMETHING will happen to Riza. I'm more interested in WHAT.

There *are* fates worse than death. Being Bradley's assistant is not one of them. It is dangerous, but in a passive, uncomfortable way.

I can see her being maimed, I guess, but that would just seem to be a repeat of the Havoc incident.

A much more interesting tactic would be to turn Riza to the "dark side" --either by causing her to have doubts about Roy, or Homunculizing her. (As we saw with Bradley, nobody said the transformation was voluntary.) I dunno that I like the idea of her as Gluttony, but as Lust? You gotta admit, it'd be interesting. x.x

I have to admit that I really do not understand where all this speculation about Riza being used to chivvy Roy into opening the Gate comes from.

My understanding is that the Homunculi want gate-openers for two things: Sacrifices, and the final person who will be directing/focusing Xerxes-esque Transmutation that will cast God down. (Or whatever it is, quite, that they're trying to do.)

I'm assuming that Father will be at the heart of that "Devour Amestris in a Night" vortex. So . . . they need another potential sacrifice, and Roy seems likely to survive the experience. I'm fine with the reasoning to there.

I don't understand how Riza has anything (really) to do with that. By now, Ed and Al know that a dead human cannot be brought back. There's no indication in the Manga that a Philosopher's Stone makes it possible to revive the dead, either. I don't know if Ed and Al have shared their discovery with Roy, yet (they did have a prolonged car ride where they talked about alchemical things in 63). But I can't imagine that they won't tell him. Maybe when they get back from the north.

In effect: I have no idea why Roy would try to Transmute Riza back to life (especially, but not only if, he knew that the effort would fail.) "He loves her" isn't a sufficient reason to me. Roy knows what she expects of him, what Hughes died to promote. If he died, or seriously injured himself in a failed transmutation, he would be wasting all of their efforts. Riza really would KILL him the next time she saw him.

Just my meanderings on the subject, anyway. ^^

-Arantzain


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pawnedbyme
post Nov 23 2006, 05:51 PM
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I don't want hawkeye to die i like her biggrin.gif
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The New Fullmeta...
post Nov 25 2006, 10:39 AM
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QUOTE(Arantzain @ Nov 12 2006, 01:47 AM) [snapback]472656[/snapback]
Right now Roy's goal is beyond his reach, and so he's can still afford to be moved by emotion. When Bradley pulls the "Hawkeye" string, then, Roy responds. But if the Flame Alchemist gets within spitting distance of overthrowing the Homunculi, do you really think that he'll falter at a threat to Riza? (And do you really believe Riza would allow him to?)

If Bradley wants to know what Roy's up to, all he's got to do is exert a little pressure on Riza. Depending on how quickly Roy responds, Bradley will be able to gage his progress.

* * *

Anyway: I think we're all in agreement that SOMETHING will happen to Riza. I'm more interested in WHAT.


-Arantzain



Good points! About the "Riza" string, though... Depending on the circumstances, I think it's possible that he could be manipulated, even though Riza *wouldn't* want it, you're right.

But, the homunculi are bound to test his limits, though, aren't they?

So yeah, I guess I agree to an extent - Riza may not die, but something will sure as heck happen to her! Now we just have to wait and watch... I think she'll get cut up somehow... *ponders*

I'm doing an anime-based fanfiction, too... I didn't find it too hard, though, about his running away and all... I didn't really go back and explain, mostly just focusing on the current effects and whatnot... If you want to, pm me and we'll bounce ideas off of each other! smile.gif


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Arantzain
post Nov 27 2006, 06:40 PM
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QUOTE(The New Fullmetal Alchemist @ Nov 25 2006, 11:39 AM) [snapback]477734[/snapback]
I'm doing an anime-based fanfiction, too... I didn't find it too hard, though, about his running away and all... I didn't really go back and explain, mostly just focusing on the current effects and whatnot... If you want to, pm me and we'll bounce ideas off of each other! smile.gif


Done and done!

I am so interested to see what Wrath plans to do to "test" Roy.

When does 66 come out again? /flail.

-Rantza


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riza hawkeye 9
post Dec 1 2006, 10:32 AM
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QUOTE
I have to admit that I really do not understand where all this speculation about Riza being used to chivvy Roy into opening the Gate comes from.


wrath said so in chapter 40

http://www.readmanga.com/view.php?currtitl...p=040&img=8

he don't say that he will use her specificaly but in the currents events in manga , and as she is the one that is being used as hostage i really believe that they will use her to force him open tthe gate or help to do so in some way , after what wrath saw in roy vs lust battle , i'm sure that he decides that would be her who must be threanted to force roy to do what the homunculus want or to keep him in line


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Meitantei Conan
post Dec 7 2006, 03:05 PM
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I think hawkeye won't die i hope she doesn't with she awesome but if she does Mustang will be Pissed !!!


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Turdaewen
post Jul 31 2009, 06:33 AM
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I think the 'Riza being killed to make Roy open the gate' would be senseless and illogical, actually... For one small detail:

Does anyone else remember the talk between Pinako and Hohenheim?? He asks if the thing the Elrics transmuted was actually Trisha. And then later Ed calls up Izumi and asks if the thing that came back from the portal was her son, right??
What was Hohenheim actually trying to say and that Ed figured out brilliantly? That even with human transmutation, you cannot bring anyone back to life. Once someone dies, there's no turning back. There's no way anyone can bring a person back from the dead!

Which also means that Al is still alive and being 'fed', by a sort of mind-link, by Ed. And that's what made Edward stand hope to recover Al's body: because he's not dead, his body has just being held up inside the portal. (and probably one of the reasons why Ed grows so slowly, since he eats and sleeps for both their bodies)

The Homunculi wouldn't be stupid enough to try to make someone perform a human transmutation to bring back a dead person, since Ed already knows there's no point in trying human transmutation for that. It would be a HUGE logic breach if they did.


Since I re-read that part of the manga, it looked like the whole concept of that theory had gone down the toilet.

It would be more logic to threaten to kill Riza than actually killing her.


And, by now, if Riza is going to die, it'll have to be now, cause there's not too many time on the manga left.


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AstroFlameX
post Aug 7 2009, 05:58 PM
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The major flaw in your logic is that you're assuming just because we, the audience, know that the dead can't be revived and that Ed will tell Mustang this, Mustang doesn't have to listen or reason it out. It doesn't have to work, Mustang just has to think it's going to. He'll attempt it out of desperation, create the thing Ed and Izumi made, and lose part of his body.

Look at it from a creative stand point. The ending would be very bad if Father didn't come pretty close to accomplishing his goal before ultimately being defeated. He only has four candidates right now. There MUST be a fifth created before the end of the story, in order for Father to appear to achieve victory, in order for the climax to as climactic as possible. The only real question is: will it be Roy or Marcoh?

So we have Marcoh, who isn't really deeply connected to anyone in the story, and has the least motivation to be forced to attempt human transmutation out of the entire cast, or Mustang, who we know is very close to Riza.

Arakawa isn't making this up as she goes, she's known since she came up with the idea for five sacrifices that there were only four eligible people, and she has had in mind who the last one is going to be. If Riza were to die, and Roy were to attempt to bring her back, it wouldn't have happened yet: it needs to happen as close to the climax as possible in order to have the most powerful effect. I can almost guarantee you it's going to happen, and it's going to happen soon, whether Father kills her himself, or Pride shows up before they get there and does it then.
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Turdaewen
post Aug 8 2009, 08:34 AM
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Well, I've come to realize that most Arakawa's 'theories' tend to fail ridiculously.
I've never seen her being obvious in none of her works and, indeed, if that happens, I would be VERY disappointed in Arakawa. Not for killing Riza, but because throughout FMA she always manage to give creative and non cliché answers to the plot. And I think that, in terms of story, that would be the most cliché thing that could EVER happen. (even more so, it's one of the largest theories in FMA... EVERYONE already, at least, thought of that possibility. Most of people think that it will happen). Just like most people thought Roy would kill Envy, and most people thought Hohenheim would die in chapter 97... along with practically every theory on FMA I've heard so far.

Even because, there are other ways to 'open the gate' than human transmutation, as Ed already proved.

More than that, I don't think Roy would be stupid enough to attempt human transmutation, or he would have done so already with Hughes. If he really learned something out of the whole Envy situation, he wouldn't be stupid enough to try and resurrect someone. Even if it is Riza.
Roy has shown himself to be a lot more resilient than at first glance. When Hughes died, the obvious answer was that Roy would quit, or fall apart. And he did neither. Hughes death only made his determination into defeating these homunculi even greater. Even with all the guilt and pain he felt, he turned that force to push him forward... I can't see why it would be any different with Riza. Not realizing the homunculi WANT them to perform human transmutation to achieve their goals would be just weird. Roy's smart enough to realize that the homunculi arrested Maria Ross to diverse him from investigations and wouldn't be smart enough to see that they want him to open the portal??

In fact, I interpret that line from Wrath about him 'making Roy open the portal, because he's too nice of a person' very unromantically like. He didn't seem to mean it in regards for him having feelings for Riza, or else he would have said so directly. Roy doesn't need to be 'a nice person to be in love with Riza'... no... I guess Wrath was being more generic. It was his concern with people in general (Al, Riza, Havoc...). And it does make a lot of difference, cause it opens up a whole range of situations that could happen, instead of 'we're using his girl against him'. Humans are way more complex than that and Arakawa LOVES to bring that complexity up.


Of course it CAN happen: Ed not telling Mustang. But I think that would be very... lame, in terms of story... so... nah... until Arakawa proves me wrong, I believe she's much smarter than falling into such a non-creative plot.
Which has no relation whatsoever to whether Riza lives or dies in the end, I just think it wouldn't be THAT way.


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Forsaken Love
post Aug 8 2009, 09:09 AM
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i was just thinking, is it actually nesscary for roy per say to open the gate with his own hands like ed and al did? Ok lol better explenation XD Hoho is a confirmed sacrifice, I belive, but he didnt delibratly perform human transumation or anything, he just happened to be in the centre of th circle and what not, and got taken to the gate without activating the transmuatation circle knowingly himself (correct me if im wrong here i cant remember that part very well XD) my point is, couldnt they restrain roy and stick him in the middle of a transmuation circle and transmute him? wouldnt that still work? When Ed opened the gate in Gluttoneys stomach, Ling and Envy jumped into it even though they themselves didnt perform the alchemy.


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Turdaewen
post Aug 9 2009, 07:49 PM
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Actually, I think he does have to open the Portal himself.

But, at the same time, we don't know exactly WHY and HOW they chose these people as 'possible sacrifices'. Of course ,it has something to do with the ability to open the Portal, but that's not all. IF Wrath was thinking about killing Riza to make Roy open the portal, why would he say 'Mustang is too kind' and not something like 'I know where we can 'push' Mustang'? Roy wouldn't have to be a 'kind' person to be able or willing to resurrect someone. Quite the contrary, he would have to be selfish.
It seemed like Wrath was bringing forth the self-sacrificing side of Roy and not his 'love for a woman'. If that was the case, his 'goodness' wouldn't be an issue, only his ability and his 'trigger' would. And if Wrath is talking about the goodness as a 'trigger', it wouldn't make sense in terms of bringing back someone to life, because that's a selfish act, not a self-sacrificing act. If his good side is a 'weakness' would mean that he would die before seeing anyone get hurt, not the contrary.

More than that, if Roy tried to resurrect Riza, it would bring the whole speech of "Leaders must put the people and welfare before themselves" during the Envy dilemma to the ground. I mean, would he stop, in the middle of a WAR, to plan and to create a theory of human transmutation for a completely selfish purpose, not only against his own goals and beliefs, but also against all Riza stands for and, more than that, knowing he would be contributing towards the goals of people who wanna destroy an entire country?? That's "being kind"??

So, for me, Wrath was not talking about 'Roy being in love with Riza', at chapter 40. He was talking about how Mustang didn't care about his own life and trying to save Riza, Al and Havoc. Which would be on the opposite direction of a human transmutation. And reinforces the idea that human transmutation is not the only way to open the Portal.


So, I reiterate that, for me, killing Riza to make Roy open the gate would make no sense at all. If she dies, it would not be for that.


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Lost_in_translat...
post Aug 10 2009, 05:05 AM
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Don't want to spoil the mood or come of as rude..


But


Don't you guys have like a million of these posts in the 'Royai' thread? huh.gif sleep.gif


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black~hayate
post Aug 10 2009, 05:15 AM
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Royai thread is discussion about Roy, Riza or both. About Hayate, Roy-taichi and all that. Fanatic dreams, fanarts, fanfics, we discuss everything. Yeah, sure, sometimes we talk about "will she die? Oh noes, do not want". But there are also other people, who are not Royai fans who would want to discuss if Riza will die or not.

Hmm... I don't think she will die. I'm kinda pretty sure she won't.
It's not necessary to let someone of the "good guys" die right now.
And since I don't think we will get to see more than 50 chapters till manga end, there's no time for her dying =D.
She has to reveal her secret to the others first (well, maybe she has not, but it would be logical >D).
Aaaand if she would die, I think, Envy would have killed her allready, it would be the perfect timing. But he couldn't, thx to Mustang.



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Turdaewen
post Aug 10 2009, 09:21 AM
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We're not exactly discussing Royai here, actually, though the subjects of both topics sorta cross eachother. We're discussing a manga theory as to how the homunculi will make Mustang open the portal, based on Wrath's statement on chapter 40.
And, as far as I know, no one ever questioned if indeed Wrath was referring to Riza. People always implied he was. ^^ And, looking back on it, I don't think he was talking about Riza... it's kinda illogic, in that sense. Unless the translation was badly done.


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Lost_in_translat...
post Aug 11 2009, 04:00 AM
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I know you're not discussing 'Royai' in general here, you're discussing whether Riza will die or not, which is also one of the topics of Hawkeye X Roy: The Royai Thread as said (many times) by Tombow.


The thing that bothers me is that a topic like this which has been mentioned already in the stated Royai thread has the permission to exist as an independent thread so that 'people who aren't necessarily Royai fans can discuss it' but why has this thread been closed then?

http://www.fullmetal-alchemist.com/forums/...showtopic=13044

If you read a part of Tombow's reply here -
QUOTE
Hence, from our experiences on our board, we came to the current set up of having Hawkeye X Roy: The Royai Thread, For Roy, Riza, and Royai fans, and more!! as the designated discussion thread for Roy , Riza, and RoyxRiza related topics.


it says clearly that the 'Royai thread' is also designed to discuss things which are related to Roy and Riza apart from the romantic aspect (Riza's future in the manga then also belongs in that desginated thread). Tombow in fact encouraged this member who didn't really appear as a 'Royai' fan to despite that fact open his discussion topic in that thread -

QUOTE
Similarly, you are perfectly welcome to start discussions on Riza that are not Royai related but about Riza, such as Riza's interactions with other people, or Riza's early life, Riza's hobby, etc., etc. on that thread also, and that would be very much appreciated.


If you have any problems with this is organized, you are free to send your request to the moderators, I personally see no point in the 'Will Hawkeye be killed?' thread to exist anymore though.

sleep.gif


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