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Evolution? Creation?, What do you believe in?
What do you believe in?
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Carnal Malefacto...
post Mar 10 2005, 05:19 PM
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QUOTE(Username05 @ Mar 10 2005, 10:28 PM)

I have seen no evidence of evelution true, and all that has been found has been a joke (Like the Nebraska man. (A pigs tooth they said came from a missing link, but was later proven to be a hoax.)) or people speaking with an ignorent tounge. (like the guy who found the Coelacanth fossil (A fish that still lives in the Indian ocean it has cartiledge apandages with fins on the end.))
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Again, I point you to the many documented and easily observable cases of bacteria and viruses evolving to develop resistances to vaccines and anti-biotics. Of course, larger organisms take exponentially longer to adapt through mutation, but even the visible differences between races and ethnicities can be explained as natural selection at work.


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ἀρχή
post Mar 10 2005, 05:37 PM
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QUOTE(What @ no bacon?,Mar 10 2005, 07:19 PM)
Again, I point you to the many documented and easily observable cases of bacteria and viruses evolving to develop resistances to vaccines and anti-biotics.

That's micro-evolution - evolution within species. It's about the same as breeding evolutionary changes. The real kicker is actually getting a species change somehow. Even mutating fruit flies doesn't produce much more than strange fruit flies blink.gif laugh.gif

If evolution is true, it probably takes some random unknown radiation or something outside of normally observed phenomena to make it work (this does not require an intelligent God necessarily of course, but I'll leave the arguments of design to others if they're so inclined tongue.gif).


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Carnal Malefacto...
post Mar 10 2005, 05:43 PM
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QUOTE(arche @ Mar 11 2005, 12:37 AM)
QUOTE(What @ no bacon?,Mar 10 2005, 07:19 PM)
Again, I point you to the many documented and easily observable cases of bacteria and viruses evolving to develop resistances to vaccines and anti-biotics.

That's micro-evolution - evolution within species. It's about the same as breeding evolutionary changes. The real kicker is actually getting a species change somehow. Even mutating fruit flies doesn't produce much more than strange fruit flies blink.gif laugh.gif

If evolution is true, it probably takes some random unknown radiation or something outside of normally observed phenomena to make it work (this does not require an intelligent God necessarily of course, but I'll leave the arguments of design to others if they're so inclined tongue.gif).
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The problem with trying to trigger evolution in lower species artificially is that no matter how many variables you attempt to put into the controlled setting, you can't adequately mimic the natural parameters for mutation, and it takes just about any complex organism thousands, if not millions of years to produce enough mutations to consider it as having truly evolved.


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Falling_Man
post Mar 10 2005, 07:12 PM
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QUOTE(Guest @ Mar 9 2005, 11:33 PM)
What really is the point of arguing over this thing? huh.gif  Clearly we all know what we think and what the other side thinks and no one's about to change their mind. Those who believe in God will always believe in God and those who don't will never do no matter how convincing the other side's facts are.

Cause we're all open-minded like that.
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There is that chance that if one from one side looks extremely deep into the other side's story, they'll be converted and begin spieling the same thing.

If our minds are so open, why can't we read each other like a book? biggrin.gif


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Carnal Malefacto...
post Mar 10 2005, 07:14 PM
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It would literally take an act of god to get me to believe in Creationism.


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gundamjcr
post Mar 10 2005, 10:24 PM
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i believe that its a mixture of evulution and creation


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Bling_bling_Ange...
post Mar 10 2005, 11:27 PM
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Actually, guys, it's all very simple... you're juss making it complex and declaring that there's no intelligent design and Creator in the name of perverted "scientific enlightenment". mellow.gif

Think about it this way:

You come across a mansion in the middle of nowheres. You enter and inside you see it full furnished, but then no-one's home.

Juss cuz no-one's home, are you gonna say that that house juss materialized out of nothingness? Are you gonna say that there was no architect? JUSS BECAUSE NO-ONE'S HOME?!?!!

*regains control*

Okay, let's take the "Big Bang" hoo-hah.

According to the Big Bang, everything required to form the universe and its components were contained in space and juss over time, turned into what we now see.

Okay, lets take this example:

To make a slam-dunk you need: a player, a b-ball, and a court. If you keep a b-ball on the court and expect it to bounce on it own--AKA, without any interference--your outta your head if you think that "time will work the process" without any intelligence. It's parallel to the Big Bang - you've got the ingredients and the location... but what above the player? Answer that, Sherlock...

Same diff, guys... *shrugs*

It's not sentimental religiousness...

Hell, no -- it's down right COMMON SENSE AND LOGIC.

It's bullshit to believe a mansion sprung out of the ground on its own... it's stupidity to think that a senseless basketball can do the slam dunnk ON ITS OWN!


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DarkWater Alchem...
post Mar 11 2005, 02:11 AM
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QUOTE(Bling_bling_Angel @ Mar 11 2005, 07:27 AM)
You come across a mansion in the middle of nowheres. You enter and inside you see it full furnished, but then no-one's home.
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Ah, but mankind didn't come across a full furnished earth with no one home, did they? tongue.gif

Evolution. I think there's enough evidence to believe all life evolved. We're still evolving too. Reseach has said that for example in X years all blonde people will be gone. Our DNA changes through ages. That is what I call logic.

For the God-guys: If He created us, why did he leave us? Where is he now? Is he watching us from above? The perv.


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Le Monkey
post Mar 11 2005, 02:15 AM
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Evolution...

In my opinion the bible or any other religious texts are just various monks who consider themselves all high and mighty and decide to make a religion...


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post Mar 11 2005, 05:59 AM
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QUOTE(DarkWater Alchemist @ Mar 11 2005, 04:11 AM)
Evolution. I think there's enough evidence to believe all life evolved. We're still evolving too. Reseach has said that for example in X years all blonde people will be gone. Our DNA changes through ages. That is what I call logic.

That's not logic, that's empirical evidence, which may or may not be properly ordered to reflect the world dry.gif


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Raven
post Mar 11 2005, 07:26 AM
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Even though I said evolution, I think it's sortof a combination of all three.


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Carnal Malefacto...
post Mar 11 2005, 12:45 PM
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The idea that mankind was 'designed' to be this way is bunk. If it were true, why do we break down so easily? Why are our organs suspended on thin membranes? Why are we so easily killed by something like deep vein thrombosis, which one can get simply from sitting in one position for too long? Why are certain races so susceptible to cancer, heart disease and birth defects? Why are our bodies not self-sustaining, in general?

If this is someone's design, then that someone is either sadistic or just plain incompetent.


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Prinz_Zoisit
post Mar 11 2005, 02:22 PM
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QUOTE(Bling_bling_Angel @ Mar 11 2005, 07:27 AM)
Juss cuz no-one's home, are you gonna say that that house juss materialized out of nothingness? Are you gonna say that there was no architect? JUSS BECAUSE NO-ONE'S HOME?!?!!

To make a slam-dunk you need: a player, a b-ball, and a court. If you keep a b-ball on the court and expect it to bounce on it own--AKA, without any interference--your outta your head if you think that "time will work the process" without any intelligence. It's parallel to the Big Bang - you've got the ingredients and the location... but what above the player? Answer that, Sherlock...

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...hmm... i'm with you, bling....

but non-believers would doubt that "everything got a(n) creator(architect)"(which is the essence of your statement)...

non-believers would also say that before the beginning(the slam-dunk), there wasn't even a b-ball nor a court... there was nothing, but development was still possible... they doubt that "everything got circumstances(as we know them) at their beginning to be able to develop"... it was another thing...the definition "nothing" is just too blurry^^


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RemyLeBeau
post Mar 11 2005, 02:57 PM
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Okay, sorry - I neglected this thread for too long. I an no good at arguing spiritual stuff, I believe what I believe because I want to be sure I'm good when I die. (Like insurance)

What I CAN do is illustrate that evolution isn't just shaky, it can't happen. There is no physical way. I'll illustrate:

Numbah One:

The Big Bang was supposed to create mostly hydrogen and helium, which is a lot different than what we have in the universe today. How did we get all the heavier elements? Evolutionists theorized that stars became supernovas, and through the fusion processes involved created the rest of the periodic table.
PROBLEM. The fusion involved can turn Hydrogen into Helium, then Helium into Deuterium, (An isotope of Hydrogen) but after that there is a gap. It's called the 'mass gap' because there is no stable atom with a mass of 4. No amount of fusion can bridge this. Instead what happens is this: The Deuterium becomes an unstable isotope, then breaking down into Hydrogen again. No Fe, no Si, just H and He. People have theorized that small amounts of heavy elements might have been created, but it is far too small (Around 20 moles per supernova, roughly 1/100 of a gram) for there to be enough junk there is now.

Numbah Two:

Assuming that somehow enough heavy elements were created to form the Earth, etc. then comes the problem of the first life created. Just a little Chemistry here: A protein in made up of a long chain of amino acids, sometimes up to 100 long. Each amino acid must be in the right place, no errors, to create the right protein. There are about 16 different amino acids that I know of, and hundreds of different proteins needed for life.
Amino acids are then composed of about twenty atoms, some combination of carbon, oxygen, and other biological chemicals. (I'm dumb, I forgot my Chemistry class. huh.gif)
Anyway, the Miller apparatus was supposed to prove that amino acids could be created in the primitive environment, using a steady DC current to symbolize lightning, the destructive force that carries thousands of volts, not just a little zap.
ANYWAY, then the apparatus had an atmosphere of carbon monoxide, ammonia, and nitrogen. The first two are poisonous to all life, and need I point out that there is no OXYGEN? Where did it come from?
Finally, I just want to point out that you need:
Up to 100 amino acids per protein, all in the right order, quantity, and ratios
Hundreds of thousands of proteins, all the right kinds and quantities.
All these must be made in the same general area.
Then these proteins must form together into the semi-complex organs of a cell.

Last thing: The law of mass action.
When these proteins, amino acids, and other junk are forming, they would be in a liquid or the Miller apparatus would not apply. Anyway, the Law of Mass Action states that chemicals under the effect of Brownian Motion (In a thin liquid like water) will quickly decompose.

So not only must all this happen, it must happen within the span of minutes. Hmm...
blink.gif


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post Mar 11 2005, 09:11 PM
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Interesting thought: Every once in a while - thousands of years, it is believed that the magnetic flow of the earth changes direction. The magnetic flow protects the earth from radiation. Well, if this happens, perhaps there's some unexpected radiation that occurs from the sun that enacts the evolutionary process.

Anyway, there's too much we don't know about the universe. My point is to say that it's not decided completely. I just don't want evolution to be thought of as a theory. It's an untested hypothesis that makes sense. Creation isn't even that, but rather based on theological study of sacred texts. Intelligent design can still leave room for evolution and doesn't even need the intelligent designer to care about the universe tongue.gif.


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