HAGANE NO RENKINJUTSUSHI
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Episode 54: Beyond The Inferno - Content Discussion Thread, Warning, possible spoilers for the first 54 episodes
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Kyelinn
post Apr 26 2010, 05:53 AM
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Because he would be killing Envy for revenge for Envy killing Hughes. Revenge consumes a person and if Mustang had killed Envy to avenge Hughes, it may not have satisfied him and then revenge would've literally taken over him and could've turned Mustang into something he's not. As for Ishval, Roy had only just become a state alchemist and only just began working for the military if I'm not mistaken. He was just doing his job and no he didn't cheerfully chat with Hughes after it either. He and Hughes weren't happy about the war anymore than they were, but he had a job to do. Most likely that job was keeping him alive financially, but Mustang DID bat an eye at it and Mustang did NOT like it. It's not like he was Kimblee and killing for fun. It's no different than our military being at war with another country. They have no choice. They have to fight for us.


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Broken Chouchou
post Apr 26 2010, 07:11 AM
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Let me just point out, Goral, that all the killing Roy did in Ishbal wasn't because of hatred, revenge or other personal reasons. He was a soldier carrying out other people's orders. This, however, is Roy succumbing to his own dark, ugly feelings that are raging inside of him. It wasn't about killing Envy or not - it wasn't about who he was killing. It was about why he was killing. Murdering for such a low, despicable - and purely egotistical - reason as revenge, would probably change him, if you ask me.

That's why it would be "okay" for Riza - or anyone else in the group - to off him. Their motives would be different. For them it would be about eliminating a threat (not something you can say for Roy).

And even if it didn't change him at all, as they say in the episode itself, how could a person who gives in to his own, selfish reasons be fit to lead a nation?

Edit: Somehow (beyond my apprehension) missed that the argument continued on this page, this was intended as a response to Goral's original post.


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Goral
post Apr 26 2010, 07:21 AM
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@Kyelinn
You were trying to justify what Mustang did in Ishbal by blaming military for it. And him being young. According to you it is an excuse for murder, revenge however is not.

@Broken Chouchou

You're just repeating Arakawa's words. Arakawa forcefully imposes her opinion on us and what she writes is completely naive. It has a moral value and it's good since it is manga for children but is stupid IMO. People don't change that easily, and they become immune to many things (such as killing). Since Mustang killed lots of people and didn't become a bad person, killing Envy would not affect him, why should it? Let's be rational here.


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Kyelinn
post Apr 26 2010, 07:27 AM
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When you're in the military, you HAVE NO CHOICE. You can't just quit the military either. He was part of the military, he'd just become a state alchemist and not ONCE did I say he was young! WTF And I never once said it was an excuse for murder. The military says jump and you say how high. That's the way it is. It is NO different than the US military fighting to protect it's people. That doesn't mean it's RIGHT nor is it justified. I don't like it, I think it's wrong, but Mustang had no choice. He was part of the Isvhal extermination whether he liked it or not. He was a soldier and he had a responsibility to the military. It's no different than a US soldier being ordered to kill whatever countries we've been at war with.


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Jealous Rogo
post Apr 26 2010, 07:53 AM
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QUOTE (Goral @ Apr 26 2010, 08:21 AM) *
You're just repeating Arakawa's words. Arakawa forcefully imposes her opinion on us and what she writes is completely naive. It has a moral value and it's good since it is manga for children but is stupid IMO. People don't change that easily, and they become immune to many things (such as killing). Since Mustang killed lots of people and didn't become a bad person, killing Envy would not affect him, why should it? Let's be rational here.


Okay I don't see how what Arakawa is saying is niave at all. What she's saying is that all the killing mustang did in Ishbal is wrong and that he will one day have to pay for it, see Vol 15, but in teh end he did that out of duty and survival rather than out of hatred or revenge. What's she's saying is killing in self defense or because you've been ordered are wrong, but murdering out of hatred is far, far worse. To say that's niave... is saying pretty much every justice system in the world is niave. If your attacked by someone who intends to kill you nad you kill them in self defense, MOST countries will give you some slack in court for that. If your a soldier at war and your ordered to shoot the enemy soldier, who has been ordered to d the same, every country nto only is okay with this but will reward you for it. If out of hatred for another human being, you go out and shoot someone dead who has not attacked you in anyway, you will be arrested and sentanced.

Generally speaking it's accepted that it's okay to kill if your at war, in fact Arakawa challenges that. She says that in fact it's NOT okay that Mustang killed in the war, and that he WILL have to pay for it, eventually. The whole path to the Fuhrer for Mustang has been about remeption for killing during Ishbal, so really, I think him killing Envy out of rage and hatred, would knock him off that path.

Ultimately what was it that Mustang was consumed by? Wrath. Who is the current Fuhrer? Wrath. The whole point they're trying to make is that a country led by a man consumed by hatred that easily, is the screwed up one they live in at the moment. If Mustang wants to make a difference, he needs to be a different man from the one who he's trying to place.

Oh and FullMetal Alchemist is not for children. I can't even begin to imagine how you got that idea. It's for Teenagers and up. biggrin.gif


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Vagrant
post Apr 26 2010, 08:20 AM
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The art looked really crisp to me in this episode.

Dodgy music in the flashback intro. In the manga, what chapter was that in? I want to check out the scenes.
On the other hand, the music during the part with Envy getting owned was great. (a new version of fanfare for the brave or to be king - from the OSTs?) Really solidified the cathartic nature of this part. I had hoped for this last week.

Roy's extra burnination is probably the only manga change I'm cool with.
His voice and appearance still seemed a little too dark to me. Maybe it's just a personal interpretation, or relates to my feelings about this plot point over his revenge.
I've warmed to the idea behind it, but going to the extent of Riza pointing a gun at him and all the shouting...It's just too much.
Maybe it's due to my tiredness but they cut/change some lines after Ed catches Envy?

Worst part of the episode, was Envy's really stretched out death scene. Man alive.
They tried to direct it like it was a sad moment, him squirming and the music swelling and the tears and the goodbye. This was the little egotistical prick who kicked off the war and killed Hughes!

Again, they seemed to cut stuff with the Armstrongs. Particularly the part where the other soldiers tell the new squad to "Do what she says!"
Mr. Armstrong got to be badass though.

Yay, Falman. I totally forgot why he wasn't with Roy and co.

Nice bit with Father and Hohenheim, the music worked quite well. But yet again they make Hohenheim seem super serious.


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Goral
post Apr 26 2010, 08:31 AM
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@Kyelinn

Let me rephrase then, you were making excuses for him when he fried innocent people. To me it's trying to justify him but if you prefer I can call it "making excuses". You were trying to invalidate my argument by making his war crime less serious. "He was made to do it". "He didn't enjoy it". "He was in the military". Seriously, how would you name it if not "justifying"?
- You killed him.
- He pulled his gun first.
I would call it justifying.

- You killed them.
- I was ordered to.
Likewise.

Anyway, what difference does it make that he was in a military? It's better if thousands of people die then me, right? I can give a hand in a genocide if I'm being ordered to, right?
I know soldier cannot resign without consequences and I know that trial would wait for him. The problem was it was clear who was aggressor and who was a victim here. Who had superior power and who didn't stand a chance. Roy was kicking the lying (on the ground). And Alex Armstrong somehow survived after disobeying orders. He even became a major.

As for you not saying he was young. Is he old according to you or what? I don't get it.
QUOTE (Kyelinn @ Apr 26 2010, 02:53 PM) *
As for Ishval, Roy had only just become a state alchemist and only just began working for the military if I'm not mistaken.

We know Roy is now 30, in Ishbal he was about 10 years younger. Why did you even mention it if not to emphasize the fact he was still a young rookie? Either you mentioned him because you wanted to make your post longer or it was supposed to be an argument that his lack of experience led to a series of wrong decisions. Or could you elaborate and explain what you meant?

I'm not thinking poorly of FMA, only this particular part. It should be obvious by now, I was active in manga thread after all and most of the time praised Arakawa. The only time I did the opposite was in the 94th thread. And I'm not causing trouble but expressing my opinion. Since you're replying to my post, I'm replying to yours. You don't want me to reply then don't reply, easy as that.

And yes, Mustang is a character that Arakawa can do whatever she desires with it. But there is sth called consistency. If Mustang changed after killing Envy it would mean Arakawa was being inconsistent and everything we knew about him before was gibberish. All in all Mustang did not kill Envy and we have no means to know "what would happen if". But since Scar somehow changed for the better what makes you think that Mustang would not? And let me remind you that Scar killed not one but several people out of his revenge. PEOPLE not worms (unless you're saying that Envy was a human). Mustang wouldn't even kill his own species but some animal that had to be put down anyway.

Killing innocent people and not changing for worse and Scar changing for better only support my opinion. Against it is that Ed (that is a kid and didn't experience what Mustang did), Scar (whose case I've already discussed about) and Riza feared it would change him and we might think that it was Arakawa's words themselves (and by that I mean her personal belief not only character's). But as I said, it would only show Arakawa's inconsistency.

@Jealous Rogo
Teenagers are not children? O_O Maybe 17-19 not (although I could argue with that) but below?

Sure he has to pay, war is bad, etc., but that is beyond my point which is: Mustang didn't become a bad person. He wants to pay for what he had done and that's honourable of him but what I was trying to say was that killing Envy wouldn't change him since killing innocent people didn't change him. And why would one act scratch everything what he's done so far? There are no perfect people. People feel anger. I don't see a problem with Mustang killing Envy and still becoming a good leader, there is no conflict here.


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Chiyo
post Apr 26 2010, 10:04 AM
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Thank-you for ignoring me and continuing to bicker even when I requested you don't. Let me make this clear.

NOBODY IS MORE "CORRECT" THAN ANYONE ELSE. Stop making/taking fights personally

I am going to edit your posts and remove anything irrelevant instead of removing your posts altogether. If you really want to debate if Roy's actions were justified, why not open a thread dedicated to discussing it? You can discuss the whole scene, from Envy to Roy and Riza.


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Bag of Magic Foo...
post Apr 26 2010, 04:42 PM
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Probably because most of the times somebody starts a new topic, a moderator finds a reason it should be appended to an already existing topic instead. wink.gif

QUOTE (Vagrant @ Apr 26 2010, 09:20 AM) *
Yay, Falman. I totally forgot why he wasn't with Roy and co.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot about that. I had been wondering whether Falman was with the Briggs troops who sneaked into Central, or if he wasn't considered a bad enough dude for the operation and had to stay behind to hold down the fort.
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deet-tastic
post Apr 26 2010, 05:42 PM
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Yeah, instead of returning like Breda and Fuery, Falman was with Briggs. Who are with Mustang. That and they needed Falmans brain powers.


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_Jelly
post Apr 27 2010, 01:23 AM
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Loooooooooove it when people say they're just voicing their opinion, yet go crazy when people don't agree with it. Love you guys.

Good episode I think (though I havent watched the subbed one yet...). Not the most amazing episode but overall nice. I didnt like how Envy's worm form came out of his head nor the angles used when he was fighting Riza. Good to see the "burn my back" thing was included for those that dont read the manga. And Armstrong. Love that guy.


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Kyelinn
post Apr 27 2010, 06:33 AM
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I really could care less if somebody doesn't agree with my opinion or not. I just don't appreciate being accused of saying something I never said.

I'm so glad they brought in the 'burn my back' scene. That made me very happy. This whole episode was full of emotion. It was really very well done. I didn't think Roy could possibly look any more raging than what he did in the episode prior to this one. I was wrong! Very good episode.


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Goral
post Apr 27 2010, 07:32 AM
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I have an advice to you Kyelinn. Don't reply to my posts in the future, we both would be happier that way. You're still denying that you were justifying Mustang's actions by making excuses "he was ordered to", "he was just doing his job", "he didn't enjoy it", "Roy had only just become a state alchemist and only just began working for the military" (read: he was young and stupid, but no you didn't write "young", lol).
You've also written an obvious lie that Mustang wasn't talking cheerfully with Hughes neither during the war or after. And when I've proved you wrong you didn't even comment on that and instead this post was deleted. Whatever.


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Broken Chouchou
post Apr 27 2010, 07:57 AM
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QUOTE (Goral @ Apr 26 2010, 05:31 PM) *
If Mustang changed after killing Envy it would mean Arakawa was being inconsistent


Because, of course, Ishbal didn't change him at all. Where would this reasoning be coming from? That he was still able to flirt with girls and maintain a "normal" life? (Which, I don't really even think he has. Ever since Ishbal, he's been living only for his work, for his goal, never letting that out of his sight, in order to change the country, and atone for what he's done. I don't think he's had much of a normal life at all.) Or, as you say later in your post, that he didn't become a bad person?

I still think there's a difference in the killing of people, in a war, because you're ordered to, and out of survival, and killing someone (or "something" if you will) out of your own hate, for self-gratification.

Maybe he wouldn't be consumed by his anger like the characters present imply, or become a 'bad person'. But I do think it would affect him, nevertheless.

Vengeance isn't the way to go, if you ask me. It might give you some immediate satisfactory feelings, but in a longer run, I doubt it will help you process or deal with your emotions. The anger and sadness you felt certainly won't be gone just like that, because of it. If anything, I think it could make you more frustrated.

QUOTE (Goral @ Apr 26 2010, 05:31 PM) *
But since Scar somehow changed for the better what makes you think that Mustang would not?


You mean, after all those years of senseless, brutal killing?

And what do you mean by 'changed for the better'? Scar ended up a better person having killed all those people than he would have, had he not? Or do you simply mean that he became a better person than his previous mass murderer-self when he realized his wrongings?

(I don't consider this discussion off-topic since it's dealing with a - or THE - major event in this episode.)

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For me, this is definitely one of the best episodes in Brotherhood so far. I hope the upcoming parts requiring it display as much emotion.


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Jealous Rogo
post Apr 27 2010, 09:18 AM
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Okay actually sat doiwn and watched the ep and... wow.

While people may argue that they dislike this portion of the manga, I defy anyone to not at least give props to teh VA work. Envy's VA in particular knockedit out of the park. No one is gonna be able to match her work. The scene was fantastic, so fantastic I cannot put it into words. I actually felt SORRY for Envy in the end. The way they handled the scene was just... sad. You finally saw Envy for the pathetic wretch he is.

Also, if you watched the episode and you still can't understand why Envy killed himself... I think BONES made it even clearer than the manga.

Basically Envy was raised to despise humans, with his father and brother (Pride in particular) constantly going on about the pride of a Homunculus. So Envy's wish to be more human caused a conflict in himself, and caused him to act out against humans, in order to make sure no one ever suspected he actually wanted to be more like them. No wonder Envy wasn't very fond of Greed, his 'out' brother if you like. His line to Greed about Ling's body 'don't be surprised if your new form disgusts me' is so... over-compensatory, like deep down Envy would probably not mind being human at all. So what happens when he's found out for what he is? he kills himself.

...is this sounding at ALL familiar to anyone? Like... well-documented cases of people killing themselves in real life for a certain reason, because of the way they were raised and attitudes they are supposed to hold? I think you get what I'm getting at, and like I said those examples are sadly all too common and real, so the idea Envy woudl do something similar for a similar reason. Yeah I buy that.

The rest of the episode... was a massive MEH after that. I mean I love the Armstrongs but I was just like 'all this stuff has NO impact on me after that tour-de-force of emotion I just saw.' I really think they'd have been better off arranging things so the episode ended with Envy's death rather than how they did. I dunno, it didn't lessen Envy's stuff btu it DID lessen everything else.

Ahhh nevermind, we get awesomeness abounds next week anyway.

Maybe I'll be able to over-analyse to death someone else nowEnvy's gone tongue.gif


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