HAGANE NO RENKINJUTSUSHI
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Chapter 90 "Regular" Discussion Thread For First Time Readers (and Others), No future chapter spoilers here, please. :)
Gukumatz
post Dec 17 2008, 04:37 PM
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QUOTE (Cece @ Dec 17 2008, 01:00 PM) *
A thought just hit guys. Hard and Fast. what if Mei saved Al. That would be so awesome huh?! I mean she is on her way there to help her friends. What do you think? biggrin.gif


That would be brilliant. We haven't seen her in a long time and Kimblee isn't just Al's enemy, he's Scar's enemy, too. Yes, yes, that's an excellent idea and I hope it happens. Marcoh is around, as well, which means that Mei would have someone to explain the situation to her if she can't speak to Al directly.

Also... I want to see Selim and Mei meet. Demon child vs. hero girl. Go!


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Kenni
post Dec 25 2008, 03:17 PM
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I have a question:
Someone mentioned Arakawa-sensei wrote somewhere in the newest chapter (90) there is still one arc missing until the end of the Manga. Is that true? I've never heard something about that up until now.
Have I missed something?


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Sannom
post Dec 27 2008, 03:02 PM
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She said it in the newest volume, not the newest chapter.
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Kryanka
post Dec 28 2008, 08:18 AM
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QUOTE (Gukumatz @ Dec 18 2008, 12:37 AM) *
QUOTE (Cece @ Dec 17 2008, 01:00 PM) *
A thought just hit guys. Hard and Fast. what if Mei saved Al. That would be so awesome huh?! I mean she is on her way there to help her friends. What do you think? biggrin.gif


That would be brilliant. We haven't seen her in a long time and Kimblee isn't just Al's enemy, he's Scar's enemy, too. Yes, yes, that's an excellent idea and I hope it happens. Marcoh is around, as well, which means that Mei would have someone to explain the situation to her if she can't speak to Al directly.

Also... I want to see Selim and Mei meet. Demon child vs. hero girl. Go!

Man, how I dislike Mei dry.gif She appeared out of the blue, with her ten year old body, huge boobs and hair like in some sick adult fantasy. Ed and Al fight desperately to save Ling and she just dances into the scene with some super-alchemy nobody heard about before and proves to be the only thing Father can't fight. Awesome, Mary Sue was the only thing this manga lacked. She makes a teary face when she lost her bitchy panda and our uber-villain Scar goes to look for it like he was some puppy of hers! Ed used his brains and alchemy to gain respect amongst coal mine city citizens, and she just prances in and everyone adores her immediately. Oh, and when Ed and Al FINALLY catch Scar, after volumes of trying to survive meeting him? She jumps in from nowhere, shrieks "Miiiisteeer!" and just screws the whole effort up, because she likes him. And her super-powers make me want to kill her. Long-range alchemy! Immune to Father's turning alchemy off! With no need for sacrifices and philosopher's stones! Ecologically fueled! And she fights hordes of monsters like fricking gummi-Yoda in clone wars. She was in her crib when she kicked Chuck Norris' behind, repeatedly. Nobody in her country wanted to stop her from travelling the whole desert, and who can blame them? And now she luuurves Al, because she thinks he's some tall hottie prince and not starved half to death prisoner. What a sweetie, she is.

She was asked to get Envy and herself out of the country. Sounds easy? And then she got convinced by Envy that she should take him to Father. And she's soooo into it, since she doesn't like to be ignored and she knows better. So yeah, I wonder what she's going to screw/super-power-save next. I. Can't. Wait. Who needs Holy Mother when we have a kindergarten eskapee who can single-handedly destroy himeras, homunculi and Father himself?
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Maphisto40
post Dec 28 2008, 10:41 AM
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QUOTE (Kryanka @ Dec 28 2008, 07:18 AM) *
QUOTE (Gukumatz @ Dec 18 2008, 12:37 AM) *
QUOTE (Cece @ Dec 17 2008, 01:00 PM) *
A thought just hit guys. Hard and Fast. what if Mei saved Al. That would be so awesome huh?! I mean she is on her way there to help her friends. What do you think? biggrin.gif


That would be brilliant. We haven't seen her in a long time and Kimblee isn't just Al's enemy, he's Scar's enemy, too. Yes, yes, that's an excellent idea and I hope it happens. Marcoh is around, as well, which means that Mei would have someone to explain the situation to her if she can't speak to Al directly.

Also... I want to see Selim and Mei meet. Demon child vs. hero girl. Go!

Man, how I dislike Mei dry.gif She appeared out of the blue, with her ten year old body, huge boobs and hair like in some sick adult fantasy. Ed and Al fight desperately to save Ling and she just dances into the scene with some super-alchemy nobody heard about before and proves to be the only thing Father can't fight. Awesome, Mary Sue was the only thing this manga lacked. She makes a teary face when she lost her bitchy panda and our uber-villain Scar goes to look for it like he was some puppy of hers! Ed used his brains and alchemy to gain respect amongst coal mine city citizens, and she just prances in and everyone adores her immediately. Oh, and when Ed and Al FINALLY catch Scar, after volumes of trying to survive meeting him? She jumps in from nowhere, shrieks "Miiiisteeer!" and just screws the whole effort up, because she likes him. And her super-powers make me want to kill her. Long-range alchemy! Immune to Father's turning alchemy off! With no need for sacrifices and philosopher's stones! Ecologically fueled! And she fights hordes of monsters like fricking gummi-Yoda in clone wars. She was in her crib when she kicked Chuck Norris' behind, repeatedly. Nobody in her country wanted to stop her from travelling the whole desert, and who can blame them? And now she luuurves Al, because she thinks he's some tall hottie prince and not starved half to death prisoner. What a sweetie, she is.

She was asked to get Envy and herself out of the country. Sounds easy? And then she got convinced by Envy that she should take him to Father. And she's soooo into it, since she doesn't like to be ignored and she knows better. So yeah, I wonder what she's going to screw/super-power-save next. I. Can't. Wait. Who needs Holy Mother when we have a kindergarten eskapee who can single-handedly destroy himeras, homunculi and Father himself?

LMAO You just made my morning! That's pretty much how I feel about Mei, but I'm trying to give her the benefit of the doubt.....it's hard. I seriously want to know what happened after she went to Central with Envy (what a baka).


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Sannom
post Dec 28 2008, 12:22 PM
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QUOTE
Ed and Al fight desperately to save Ling and she just dances into the scene with some super-alchemy nobody heard about before and proves to be the only thing Father can't fight.


Elixirology was known for more five tomes. And Scar was here too, who proved to be a lot more dangerous than May. His alchemy too wasn't affected by Father.

QUOTE
Ed used his brains and alchemy to gain respect amongst coal mine city citizens, and she just prances in and everyone adores her immediately.


She saved dozens of people in that mine, you wold think she deserved some kind of respect and gratitude.

QUOTE
Nobody in her country wanted to stop her from travelling the whole desert, and who can blame them?


She was their last hope, after all. The Chang clan isn't a wealthy clan like the Yao clan, so she couldn't afford a family of trained bodyguards.

QUOTE
She was asked to get Envy and herself out of the country. Sounds easy? And then she got convinced by Envy that she should take him to Father. And she's soooo into it, since she doesn't like to be ignored and she knows better.


It seems to me that little Envy must feel really frustrated in that little jar of him, thinking that she would take him directly to Father... but apparently she is doing things her way, and little Envy has to wait, discovering that she isn't so easy to manipulate.
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RoyxRizaFan
post Dec 28 2008, 01:44 PM
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I disliked Mei when she first came, too. In fact, for a while, she was the first and only character in FMA that I hated.

She, like you said, came out of nowhere and suddenly was so powerful. This annoyed me.

Then I started to get to know her.

Her powers have been explained, and her powers have a lot to do with how to defeat FatherDude. Hoho Papa is in on it, too. She's not the only one.

Even though she seemed like a whiney kid to me at first, she grew on me because she turned out to be willing to help and work for what she wanted. She worked hard for what she believed in and treated everyone kindly.

As for the whole Al thing, I'm sure her childish fantasies are what got her to like him - in fact, that part is positive. She's been traveling with him for quite a while now, though, and has begun to talk to him and begin to get to know him, and after spending all this time with him, she still likes him. Even though he's not in a human form, I'm sure that it's not only the image of what he has the potential of being that'll keep her around. It doesn't seem possible for someone to like someone else purely on a product of their imagination. At this point, I think she cares about him enough as Al that once he gets his body back *crosses fingers* that she'll help nurse him back to health.

As for the miners, I'm with what Sannom said. Besides, they hated Ed because he was part of the military. They were open and friendly to Al always. Ed needed to gain their respect because of who he worked for. Mei was from a third party, and therefore harmless to them, like Al had been.


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Cece
post Dec 29 2008, 10:19 AM
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QUOTE (RoyxRizaFan @ Dec 28 2008, 01:44 PM) *
Mei was from a third party, and therefore harmless to them, like Al had been.


Great defense of Mei! I couldn't have said it better myself! Mei's one of my favorite characters. I didn't think people even minded Mei but I guess everyone has a character that they dislike.


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Kryanka
post Dec 29 2008, 03:49 PM
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QUOTE (Maphisto40 @ Dec 28 2008, 06:41 PM) *
LMAO You just made my morning! That's pretty much how I feel about Mei, but I'm trying to give her the benefit of the doubt.....it's hard. I seriously want to know what happened after she went to Central with Envy (what a baka).

cheers.gif

QUOTE (Sannom @ Dec 28 2008, 08:22 PM) *
Elixirology was known for more five tomes.

Yeah, when SHE introduced it. rolleyes.gif I was hoping that the way to defeat Father would be developed by, you know, the heroes of the story.

QUOTE (Sannom @ Dec 28 2008, 08:22 PM) *
And Scar was here too, who proved to be a lot more dangerous than May.

Scar was more dangerous than the little pink princess! Nowai. I'm deeply shocked. At least she rescued him later, so we can adore her even though she's got such minor drawbacks.

QUOTE (Sannom @ Dec 28 2008, 08:22 PM) *
She saved dozens of people in that mine, you wold think she deserved some kind of respect and gratitude.


This argument is so wrong it's hard to describe.
That's the point, isn't it? Ed had to use his brain and work for this respect and she just has her alchemy so awesome she doesn't even need to actually be at the scene! It's in the definition of Mary Sue that she is suppossed to deserve uhm, respect and gratitude, for something that doesn't cost her a thing. She cures cancer and farts butterflies, show her some respect! She saved thousands of people and didn't even destroy her hairdo and then gave everyone a pony, why aren't you grateful you ungrateful brat, she's so much better than you!1!

Give me a break, that's not how you write characters.

QUOTE (Sannom @ Dec 28 2008, 08:22 PM) *
She was their last hope, after all. The Chang clan isn't a wealthy clan like the Yao clan, so she couldn't afford a family of trained bodyguards.

Bodyguard? I meant someone older than ten years old. Where is she from, Neverland?

QUOTE (Sannom @ Dec 28 2008, 08:22 PM) *
It seems to me that little Envy must feel really frustrated in that little jar of him, thinking that she would take him directly to Father... but apparently she is doing things her way, and little Envy has to wait, discovering that she isn't so easy to manipulate.

Uhm, but she just proved she is... or am I reading different manga?

QUOTE (RoyxRizaFan @ Dec 28 2008, 09:44 PM) *
Her powers have been explained, and her powers have a lot to do with how to defeat FatherDude. Hoho Papa is in on it, too. She's not the only one.

I know, but it annoys me that the only two people who can use this kind of weapon are: Hohenheim, a couple of centuries old master in alchemy, who was there when both kinds of alchemy was practically created, who have power of free souls and motivation to develop his skills...

and the pink princess. dry.gif

QUOTE (RoyxRizaFan @ Dec 28 2008, 09:44 PM) *
Even though she seemed like a whiney kid to me at first, she grew on me because she turned out to be willing to help and work for what she wanted. She worked hard for what she believed in and treated everyone kindly.

She's like ten. And have virtues like Ghandi.

QUOTE (RoyxRizaFan @ Dec 28 2008, 09:44 PM) *
At this point, I think she cares about him enough as Al that once he gets his body back *crosses fingers* that she'll help nurse him back to health.

I don't like this idea. mellow.gif Not at all. 'Lolita' doesn't even begin to describe the image I got.

QUOTE (RoyxRizaFan @ Dec 28 2008, 09:44 PM) *
As for the miners, I'm with what Sannom said. Besides, they hated Ed because he was part of the military. They were open and friendly to Al always. Ed needed to gain their respect because of who he worked for. Mei was from a third party, and therefore harmless to them, like Al had been.

Well, yeah. I didn't like that the first thing they did was compare her to Ed. Ed's smart, she's ~~miraculous~~. Please no compare.


Sorry if I offended anyone, I didn't meant to. I like to defend the characters I love and bash those I dislike smile.gif

There's one thing I like in Mei, and that's actually her childish crushes on her own imaginary boys. It actually fits her age and makes her believeable and not some goddess pastede on yay.
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Sannom
post Dec 29 2008, 06:59 PM
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QUOTE
I was hoping that the way to defeat Father would be developed by, you know, the heroes of the story.


Actually, because the brothers are like completely unable to understand that alchemy, I don't think this is the way to defeat Father.

QUOTE
That's the point, isn't it? Ed had to use his brain and work for this respect and she just has her alchemy so awesome she doesn't even need to actually be at the scene!


She is an alchemist who doesn't work for the state : that's enough. She saved a lot of lives too.

QUOTE
Bodyguard? I meant someone older than ten years old. Where is she from, Neverland?


She is the heir to the Chang clan, and more likely the most powerful of her clan (if she wasn't, she would have bodyguards). The others must be too old or not good enough with sword to engage themselves in such a trip. Plus she has a responsibility, just like Lin Yao.

QUOTE
Uhm, but she just proved she is... or am I reading different manga?


She decided to stay and help Amestris. She wanted to do this before. Envy thinks he has succeed to "talk" to her greed, I'm personaly sure he "talked" to her heart and convinced her to stay and help the people; She won't get to the enemy all alone.

QUOTE
She's like ten. And have virtues like Ghandi.


She is naive and kind. Al without the experience if you prefer.
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Kryanka
post Jan 2 2009, 01:12 PM
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QUOTE (Sannom @ Dec 30 2008, 02:59 AM) *
Actually, because the brothers are like completely unable to understand that alchemy, I don't think this is the way to defeat Father.
I do feel it might be... Hoho will most probably use it ad it IS something Father can't turn out so why do you think it's not-so-important if there's another person who can use it?

Besides, Ed has never tried using Elixirology (nobody told him how) - and anyway - has he even heard what it is? And Al I think could use it if he had his natural body, as I think Xingese alchemy is like bioenergy, acupuncture and such, a tin can can't work it. Why do you think the brothers "are completely unable to understand" it? There's nothing to back it up. There are not untalented - Ed used and survived forbidden human transmutation ot once but four times! He learned a lot, and sacrificed even more in process. I hate it they are considered mediocre and dumb compared to Mei who was apparently born with speshul powers, unless she learnt it at school instead of reading and counting to ten, giving her age.

QUOTE (Sannom @ Dec 30 2008, 02:59 AM) *
She is an alchemist who doesn't work for the state : that's enough. She saved a lot of lives too.
That would be ok if she, as a character, deserved to be an alchemist able to save many lives with a wave of her hand.

QUOTE (Sannom @ Dec 30 2008, 02:59 AM) *
She is the heir to the Chang clan, and more likely the most powerful of her clan (if she wasn't, she would have bodyguards). The others must be too old or not good enough with sword to engage themselves in such a trip. Plus she has a responsibility, just like Lin Yao.
She's ten AND important. In normal world, she'd be the last to be send on such a journey. But she IS little pink Chuck Norris.

QUOTE (Sannom @ Dec 30 2008, 02:59 AM) *
She decided to stay and help Amestris. She wanted to do this before. Envy thinks he has succeed to "talk" to her greed, I'm personaly sure he "talked" to her heart and convinced her to stay and help the people;
He talked to her ego and convinced her she's staying to help. She did as he wanted her to, because she thinks she's powerful and good hearted. Adults who told her to go home are probably dumb and should respect her more, so she'll do as homunculus tells her to, because he understand how great she is.

QUOTE (Sannom @ Dec 30 2008, 02:59 AM) *
She won't get to the enemy all alone.
No, she's bringing them reinforcements. cool.gif

QUOTE (Sannom @ Dec 30 2008, 02:59 AM) *
She is naive and kind. Al without the experience if you prefer.

Al have complex personality in addition to those. She's got super powers instead.
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Sannom
post Jan 2 2009, 02:45 PM
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QUOTE
Why do you think the brothers "are completely unable to understand" it? There's nothing to back it up.


I think it's because they're scientists. I believe that Elixirology is not based on equations and math, but on feelings and beliefs, as opposed to Alchemy. May must have been in that field of work since she is very young, and the way she learned it must be completely different. Elixirology uses only one circle and can actually stop at decomposition (even biological decomposition), something that most alchemists can't do. The way she describes Elixirology to Al, that power seems to be deeply linked with the "ki" or "life force" they talk about. All Xingese know of that life force and can sense it. May went further and learned to manipulate it. How can Al and Ed, who doesn't know anything about Ki, use Elixirology? I'm sure they have difficulties to believe in the concept, as scientists, so how can they seriously learn to manipulate it?

QUOTE
She's ten AND important. In normal world, she'd be the last to be send on such a journey. But she IS little pink Chuck Norris.


Remember : they're desperate. The poorest, weakest clan of all. Apparently, it's considered as the root of all evil by the Yao clan. If ever Lin becomes emperor of Xing, I wonder what would happen to the Chang clan.

QUOTE
I hate it they are considered mediocre and dumb compared to Mei who was apparently born with speshul powers, unless she learnt it at school instead of reading and counting to ten, giving her age.


She must have learned it in the same time she learned to read, write and count (and i think she is 12, not 10). Elixirology is not about concepts or science, it's about manipulating something every Xingese seem to know about. If she is just a little bit gifted, she can learn how to manipulate it easily after that.
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Kryanka
post Jan 3 2009, 03:00 PM
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QUOTE (Sannom @ Jan 2 2009, 10:45 PM) *
I think it's because they're scientists. I believe that Elixirology is not based on equations and math, but on feelings and beliefs, as opposed to Alchemy. May must have been in that field of work since she is very young, and the way she learned it must be completely different. Elixirology uses only one circle and can actually stop at decomposition (even biological decomposition), something that most alchemists can't do. The way she describes Elixirology to Al, that power seems to be deeply linked with the "ki" or "life force" they talk about. All Xingese know of that life force and can sense it. May went further and learned to manipulate it. How can Al and Ed, who doesn't know anything about Ki, use Elixirology? I'm sure they have difficulties to believe in the concept, as scientists, so how can they seriously learn to manipulate it?
Alchemy is hardly scientific... even if it's equivalent to our technology in their world. The difference between alchemy and elixirology is very little - they merely use different fuel to activate transmutation. Ed have used limbs twice, his lifespam once and souls of Xerxenians once, why do you think "ki" or "life force" is so beyond his knowledge if he discovered the other fuels himself? He can also stop transmutation at decomposition.

I repeat, we don't know if they can use it. Ed didn't have a chance to try and Al doesn't hava a body, which I'm sure is necessary to perform it. With his empathetic nature I'm certain he'd master it very fast.

I could stomach it if people of Xing had just power of detection life force and even using it to fuel transmutation. What I don't like is that it's long-range (unnecessary), immune to Father's power (makes the villain practically defeated by an outside force) and doesn't need any sacrifice and apparently knowlegde or experience (boring and unsatisfying). It's totally out of the cerefully constructed logic of the manga, the main theme of equivalent exchange, it's allmighty, unstoppable, and surprising to all enemies. AND the person who uses it is annoying brat with Mary Sue qualities who is otherwise absolutely uninteresting and unrealistic character.

QUOTE (Sannom @ Jan 2 2009, 10:45 PM) *
Remember : they're desperate. The poorest, weakest clan of all. Apparently, it's considered as the root of all evil by the Yao clan. If ever Lin becomes emperor of Xing, I wonder what would happen to the Chang clan.
How can the weakest clan be considered the root of all evil? Unless they're all like Children of Corn, Rosemary's babies and such.

That's another Mary Sue trait: they're oh so being laughed at for being weak, yet their toddlers fight dozens of chimeras at once! Come on, it's one or another. Emo crap.

QUOTE (Sannom @ Jan 2 2009, 10:45 PM) *
She must have learned it in the same time she learned to read, write and count (and i think she is 12, not 10). Elixirology is not about concepts or science, it's about manipulating something every Xingese seem to know about. If she is just a little bit gifted, she can learn how to manipulate it easily after that.
I agree. Still, elixirology is too powerful for the manga's standards, it was introduced too late and Mei is too unimportant to be the only person beside Hoho who can use it.
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Sannom
post Jan 3 2009, 03:46 PM
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QUOTE
The difference between alchemy and elixirology is very little - they merely use different fuel to activate transmutation.


Alchemy uses a lot more of signs to determine the materials used in the transmutation, and the shape you want to give to the thing transmuted. Elixirology just needs one circle, and the knives.

QUOTE
What I don't like is that it's long-range (unnecessary), immune to Father's power (makes the villain practically defeated by an outside force) and doesn't need any sacrifice and apparently knowlegde or experience (boring and unsatisfying).


Okay, first elixirology is perharps long-range, but you still need to throw the knives at the place where you want the transmutation to take place : it's a drawback. Second, why should elixirology need any sacrifice??? Alchemy doesn't need sacrifices! You need sacrifices to transmutate without a circle, that's not the case of elixirology! Finally, I'm not sure you can use this kind of thing without knowledge : May must know some medical stuff to heal injuries, and she still needs to know what she's transmuting.

QUOTE
It's totally out of the cerefully constructed logic of the manga, the main theme of equivalent exchange


It was never stated that Elixirology doesn't follow the rule of equivalent exchange. Actually, I'm sure it does, since May said that Elixirology cannot create a thing out of thin air, in that case an arm or a body.

QUOTE
I agree. Still, elixirology is too powerful for the manga's standards, it was introduced too late and Mei is too unimportant to be the only person beside Hoho who can use it.


How is it "too powerful"??? Okay, just because it can be used against Father? That's not a difference in power, it's a difference in nature. Scar's arm too use elixirology, he never seemed to be unstoppable by any standarts!
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Kryanka
post Jan 4 2009, 11:26 AM
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QUOTE (Sannom @ Jan 3 2009, 11:46 PM) *
Alchemy uses a lot more of signs to determine the materials used in the transmutation, and the shape you want to give to the thing transmuted. Elixirology just needs one circle, and the knives.
Doesn't mean alchamy is scientific - merely more demanding. Those who use it are not close minded, they need to be intelligent and better educated. The person who uses elixirology doesn't need anything.

QUOTE (Sannom @ Jan 3 2009, 11:46 PM) *
Okay, first elixirology is perharps long-range, but you still need to throw the knives at the place where you want the transmutation to take place : it's a drawback.
How is it drawback if twelve years old can do it perfectly? Unless she's very special, but it's not the kind of argument I'd want to hear.

QUOTE (Sannom @ Jan 3 2009, 11:46 PM) *
Second, why should elixirology need any sacrifice??? Alchemy doesn't need sacrifices! You need sacrifices to transmutate without a circle, that's not the case of elixirology!
Maybe I mixed it with anime, but I thought transmutation needs some kind of fuel. In anime it was lives of people from our world, in elixirology they use the natural flow in the ground, and what Xing poeple sense underneath Amestris must be lives of people who were killed there, something that Father controls. Human transmutation needs much bigger sacrifice though, bodies or souls of living people.

It is wonderful that alchemists of Amestris can learn to use alchemy using the Xingese natural flow, but for now, looks like it's the only weapon against Father and the only people who can use it are Hoho and Mei.

QUOTE (Sannom @ Jan 3 2009, 11:46 PM) *
Finally, I'm not sure you can use this kind of thing without knowledge : May must know some medical stuff to heal injuries, and she still needs to know what she's transmuting.
Mei is no Doogie Howser dry.gif

QUOTE (Sannom @ Jan 3 2009, 11:46 PM) *
How is it "too powerful"??? Okay, just because it can be used against Father?
Yup, exactly. It's also long-range and even kids can use it.

QUOTE (Sannom @ Jan 3 2009, 11:46 PM) *
Scar's arm too use elixirology, he never seemed to be unstoppable by any standarts!

We're talking about the mass murderer of best of their kind, state alchemists, aren't we? And he's only deconstructing, if I'm not mistaken. AND he really risked his life to find Mei's panda, dammit sad.gif
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