HAGANE NO RENKINJUTSUSHI
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Episode 54: Beyond The Inferno - Content Discussion Thread, Warning, possible spoilers for the first 54 episodes
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Chiyo
post Apr 24 2010, 12:29 PM
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Talk-back/content discussion for English dubbed episode on Adult Swim starts on page 5. smile.gif


Please post the discussions on the content of episode 54 here.
This thread is declared as a Spoiler zone for the content of the first 54 episodes.

Please don't ask for links on where to watch this episode, raw or subbed. Discussions on 'where to watch' belong in Where/How to Watch FMA Series 2. Don't post screencaps unless highlighting something important about the content of the episode. Just like on in most area's of the board, avoid one line posts, spam of any kind or conversations between two members.

Screenshots: see Omni's post.

Summary: Riza tricks a Roy-disguised Envy into giving himself away, and fires at him repeatedly. He manages to gain the advantage over her, but Roy arrives and continues attacking him viciously with his flames. Envy's body begins to decompose as his embryonic form tries to escape, but is trapped under Roy's foot. Riza points her gun at the real Roy, however, refusing to let him surrender to his rage in revenge. Edward and Scar arrive, and Ed takes posession of Envy, with Roy threatening him. Ed, Scar, and Riza talk him down from his madness, which surprises Envy. Envy tries to rile them up against each other, but is unable to. Edward suggests that Envy is jealous of humans, of how they help each other and endure crises. Outraged and humiliated, Envy commits suicide. Meanwhile, the Armstrong siblings continue to fight Sloth, with Alex tricking Sloth into slamming his arm back into place, and then plummeling him repeatedly and using his alchemy. The Briggs troops attack the front gate, leading the commander in charge to order firing at the unevacuated areas, but before he can complete the command, Buccaneer arrives to stop him, as does Falman, and Izumi Curtis. Deep underground, Hohenheim confronts Father, formerly the Dwarf in the Flask.
- © Penguintruth, used with permission

*WARNING*

I will not tolerate anyone ignoring the rules. I will make these clear and simple;

-Do not spam.
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Spam means one line posts that contain little content. "OMG that ep was so cool" would be an example of spam. If you enjoyed the episode please specify what you enjoyed so much, was there anything you didn't like?

Spoilers mean anything you know will happen in upcoming episodes. Not everybody reads the manga and you may reveal something they didn't know. For future episode discussion, please go to the relevant topic. If you are unsure how to use spoiler tags, please ask.

Going off topic means discussing a characters actions outside of the episode, or talking about the artwork, or upcoming episodes etc. I know this can happen easily so don't be upset if I move your posts or guide you in the right direction. Double check the forum for the right place to take your post.

Everybody can voice their opinion, and nobody is correct just as nobody is incorrect. Because none of you will spam (right?) people will justify why they didn't like something. You are welcome to say "well I like that part because..." but you CAN NOT say "no you are wrong because..."

I don't like to start a thread so negatively but I want to stop these things before they happen. Please ensure this is the only time I have to mention these rules.


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Michiyo-
post Apr 25 2010, 01:29 AM
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- We waited so long for the ďBurn my backĒ scene. smile.gif Love it.
- Riza is so cool. Too bad she was joking.
- Wow, Roy is really angry. Flames after flames.
- More Ishbal flashbacks with Hughes.
- I love this conversation. Great animation, excellent voice acting.
- Envy is envious. And his voice is still cute.
- Bye-bye Envy. I wonít miss you.
- And now back to the Armstrong vs Sloth.
- Alex has a time to show how awesome he is.
- Izumi!
- Wow, they changed the ending. Itís time for Hohenheim vs Father.

Absolutely loved this episode. Off to Sakuracon now, but this episode totally made my day, Iíll be in Royai fangirl mode all day. biggrin.gif


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penguintruth
post Apr 25 2010, 01:32 AM
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My initial thoughts:

- Oh look, a scene we should have seen tens of episodes ago. Thanks, Bones. It's exactly too late for me to give a damn about it.
- Jeez, Envy, stop being such a little weakling! This is like watching a crippled man fight a sabertooth tiger.
- Oh Scar, you're trying to be a relevant character again! How adorable.
- No, sorry, I'm not going to get choked up remembering a character from that long ago in the story, who was barely in it. Nice music, though.
- I love Envy's last-ditch trolling attempts. Envy would love the internet.
- STOP DRAGGING THIS SCENE OUT. JEEZ. They say that the FIRST series was melodramatic.
- "Bye bye, Edward Elric."
- TALES OF THE MASTER, DO WANT!!!
- Oh, look, we return to a homunculi battle that ISN'T utterly retarded. Except for the stupid homunculi dolls.
- Looks like this episode isn't a total loss.This music is perfect for Alex, by the way.
- Everyone's favorite housewife! biggrin.gif
- Oh, hey, it's Hohenheim! Jeez, he's been walking for a long time.

I'm not sure what I'll end up rating this episode. I have mixed feelings.


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black~hayate
post Apr 25 2010, 01:38 AM
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Wahahahahaha! That was awesome! The wait was worth it! I mean, we waited a whole year to see this chapter animated!

-It would be nice if they would blend the "Rain" song into the Ishval scene.
-The piano music was kinda tragic. It could have been better, still...
-They showed... omg they showed what??? That was not included in the manga! And I mean the "show you my back" scene! I mean... they showed Riza doing what??? I'm still positively shocked biggrin.gif.
-Oh... the gestics were awesome in this episode. So many different faces. Riza's grin, Roy's glare (deathglare), ah and Envy... I love the little green worm.
-That glare between still human-like Envy and Mustang... it seemed so awfully long to me.
-The little Envy under Roy's shoe... I felt so sorry for him ;___; He cried so pitfully...
-Envy-worm's voice actor is so awesome. Who is it, anyways? Still the same guy (or better said, girl?) or someone else?
-Roy screaming while producing flames... come on pal, it's not like snipping fingers is so hard that you scream around biggrin.gif
-But hey, the emotions were awesome. I mean, the manga chapter was awesome. But then seeing it, it was like feeling it by yourself.
-Also when Roy burned Envy or when Envy hit Riza, it all seemed so painfull, I even hissed.

What was the second eye catch? I missed it.

-Armstrong was great! And hey, we saw his mouth! Even twice! One time he showed only his teeth, another time he actually opened his mouth while screaming.
-Oh and the orange-pink sparkles <3!

I laughed at the end. "See you next time" with Envy's picture on it... but guys! We definetely won't see Envy next time biggrin.gif

Oh I loved this episode. And I watched it with some bad quality at Keyhole. It will be pretty awesome to watch it tomorrow in HD with English subs.


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shanryelric
post Apr 25 2010, 01:43 AM
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ok. first of all, I almost cry because of the crackness of keyhole. thanks to the super slow internet connection sad.gif(
I did'nt see the burn my back scene, nor when riza opened her clothes. damn it all. -,-

- the burn back scene, riza opened her clothes, and I am not able to see it??? WOW
- Roy always calls riza by her name when they're alone. yeah.
- angry roy is angry, and he looks so sexyyy biggrin.gif
- Ishbal flashbacks and Hughes.
- seems ike a Great animation and excellent voice acting.
- Envy is cute with that voce smile.gif
- 'Bye-bye edward' -,-
- Armstrong vs Sloth...
- Izumi! IZUMIIIIIIII
- they shanged the ending? oh, HohoVSFather? cool biggrin.gif

really, ANOTHER FAVE EPISODE!! even though I cannot see almost all of it ; A ;


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Kaori Ayanami
post Apr 25 2010, 01:50 AM
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Holy smokes! I saw this episode subbed! Yes, you read it right!
...in Japanese, I'm afraid XDDD
Still, it was awesome. Being the like-better-written-Japanese-than-spoken-Japanese-weirdo that I am, it's a great thing I can rely on Japanese subs besides the voice acting. I love KeyHole.

Anyway...
-I was late, so I could only watch the episode from Envy's rant on. It was much better than I expected. Even better than the manga, and I don't say it often.
-This time I could get to feel Envy's painful emotion, not only the despair. Maybe it was the tears, seeing them moving kind of got me. Besides Envy's wonderful voice actress, of course.
-Olivier's fake tears look even more epic in red.
-Dammit Sloth, you're in for suffering when picking on Armstrong. What a "revival", for God's sake.
-I loved that while Armstrong was returning to his glorious self and those morons from Central were hanging down to the floor, Olivier just went on slashing zombies as if she did that for workout in Briggs.
-Initially I thought the ending video was kind of lame, but looks like it won't matter a lot since only the song it's been used, at least now... He he he.

Thrilling. More than usual. Must be the online thingie. XD

By the way, did you notice the amount of otaku-ish commercials? Even Naruto was there o_0. And, also, Tales of the Master T^T. I want the "if FMA was a romantic comedy", too! It's part of the same story, after all. biggrin.gif
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SneakyRuler
post Apr 25 2010, 01:56 AM
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- Ishbal, at last. A few more good flashbacks like this and episode 30 is forgotten.
- the sheer fear in Envy's eyes, I felt so sorry for him
- excelent. maybe we would do withoout the flashbacks but... both Mustang and Envy. Mustang's anger and rage towards Envy, the desire to kill him and then the upcoming conflict whether to satisfy his revenge or choose to live without.
what might have felt a little off in manga was 100% here. I almost cried for Envy and that's a lot to say, it didn't even occure to me in manga. Both Mustang's and Envy's VA were amazing, even Ed's compassion for Envy. poor little bastard, you will be missed once I'm sure you're dead you don't seem too bad anymore...
- why do they continue to show us Izumi's training? it's like showing us a candy they do not intend to give us
- Armstrong team to end this
- and here comes THE ALCHEMIST
- ending song to good use, loved how Father was shown through the flask

Loved this episode so much, it made manga scenes even better. Next time: more homunculus beating and more Father and Izumi

QUOTE
And, also, Tales of the Master T^T. I want the "if FMA was a romantic comedy", too! It's part of the same story, after all. biggrin.gif

I wanna se that! "Miss, you dropped a bear!" "Oh dear, clumsy me! Thank you!"

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Omni
post Apr 25 2010, 02:33 AM
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Episode 54 Screencaps and Impressions

QUOTE (black~hayate @ Apr 25 2010, 04:38 AM) *
What was the second eye catch? I missed it.




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amestris_star
post Apr 25 2010, 02:59 AM
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Such a beautiful episode <3
All the Roy-Riza interaction <3
The beautiful animation and music <3

So lovely!


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Claudius
post Apr 25 2010, 04:22 AM
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So they added Hughes to this scene? Chapter 95 generally forgot about the guy, except for Roy's mental image of the picture. However, the 'Burn my back' sequence convinces me that this adaptation emphasizes the 'Riza stops Roy' point even more.
...
Okay, I may be burned or shot for saying this, but shouldn't the resolution be about Hughes instead of Royai? Since Hughes' memory is what drove Roy to this point, wouldn't it make more sense if it's Hughes' memory that stops him? Like have Roy ready to kill, thinking about how life has gotten a little darker since Hughes left, remembering how much of a great friend he was, and then realizing that Hughes the great friend would never have condoned this act of revenge (Hey, best friends don't tell you to steal or take drugs, so scratch 'killing someone' off the list too! Besides, if your girlfriend is protesting the act, I doubt your BF would think differently). Instead (in the manga), its Royai that's the solution, with Hughes taking a backseat. No mention from Edward or Riza as in 'Hughes wouldn't want this' or 'Don't ruin Hughes' memory, Roy!" (In fact, its interesting that whenever Roy has a Hughes moment, Riza or her grandfather suddenly appear. Can't stand your man thinking about anyone else but yourself, Riza?) Has this changed in Brotherhood?
Having Hughes be Roy's motivator would have solved another problematic point. Please bear with me a situation in Legion of Super-Heroes#297-298 by Paul Levitz (1983):
Cosmic Boy's family are injured by a terrorist firebomb. CB goes after the terrorists to torture them with his magnetic powers (manipulating the iron fibers in their blood). His girlfriend Night Girl knocks him out. Sound familiar?
Anyway, shortly after, the more calmer Cosmic Boy gets the news that his mother died of her injuries. CB is heartbroken. Night Girl tries to be comforting: "Is there anything I can do?"
"Yes. Forgive me." He magnetically throws her against a wall, knocking her out. Then he resumes his wish for revenge. Some of his Legionnaire buddies (Ultra Boy, Chameleon Lad, Element Lad, Sun Boy) follow CB as he corners the terrorists again. But they do nothing. They have to have faith that Cosmic Boy can stop this by himself, with no one holding his hand (I'm guessing they'll intercede at the very last minute). Indeed, Cosmic Boy gets ready to kill, hearing the terrorists' "Stop!" and then he thinks of his mother saying the same thing. He stops, horrified at what he was about to do.
This chapter brings up a major character flaw of Roy. In emotional moments he has to be supervised into making the right decision, else alone he will do the wrong thing. In this battle, what if Riza was unconscious and Ed and Scar got lost in the caverns? Then Roy would have killed Envy. If Spider-Man (who went after the Green Goblin for killing Gwen Stacy) and Cosmic Boy can choose mercy over revenge on their own and without help, then why can't Roy? Having Riza stop him only delays the problem. One of these days, this will happen to Roy again, and it might happen when he's alone (or like Cosmic Boy, he'll ensure his solitude by keeping others from interfering). Thus, I'm not going to bet the farm Roy will do the right thing.
And can someone please explain Envy's decision? When did the story ever hint to his jealousy of humans? Not to mention his suicide after all that "I don't wanna die!" whining? Whatever you may think of Anime1Envy, at least his series hinted to his issues early (Lab 5), and his fate was a logical end to that characterization (It started with being screwed by Daddy. It ends with getting screwed by Daddy). Here, it's "After 80 chapters of telling you guys that you are ants, the truth is I really envy you! Oh, and even though I screamed my cowardice to the top of my lungs, I have no problem killing myself!" Answers, anyone?
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Jealous Rogo
post Apr 25 2010, 04:57 AM
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QUOTE (Claudius @ Apr 25 2010, 05:22 AM) *
And can someone please explain Envy's decision? When did the story ever hint to his jealousy of humans? Not to mention his suicide after all that "I don't wanna die!" whining? Whatever you may think of Anime1Envy, at least his series hinted to his issues early (Lab 5), and his fate was a logical end to that characterization (It started with being screwed by Daddy. It ends with getting screwed by Daddy). Here, it's "After 80 chapters of telling you guys that you are ants, the truth is I really envy you! Oh, and even though I screamed my cowardice to the top of my lungs, I have no problem killing myself!" Answers, anyone?


Okay I don't wanna get off topic becuase I've not actuallY SEEN the episode yet, but I can give an explanation based off of what the manga had;

Throughout the series, Envy has been swanning around, full of bravado and constantly telling humans their insects and getting furious anytime a human looked down on him. In fact Envy gets his angriest when the humans he's been fighting have been defiant, in situations where he would be cowering with fear.

Case and point, during his fight with Ling and Marcoh, he had them at his mercy and they were still defiant. Look to this fight Mustang where he's in the same situation, he's screaming and begging for his life. Envy clearly hates humans because they remain defiant where he would be terrified. People get angry when they see people doing things they themselves cannot do.

Envy wishes he had the courage humans do, and he's also shown indications that he wishes he had the friendship humans did as well. Look at how Envy reacts to Lust's death, while admittedly yes, Gluttony was far more furious and saddened by her death, Envy wasn't far behind him. In fact what did Envy want when Lust first died? He wanted Mustang DEAD.

So does Envy being jealous of humans make sense? Yes, to me it does. It wasn't as blatant as Anime1Envy's 'daddy issues' but it was still there. Envy's pride and hatred for humans all came from a place of Envy. He's a coward at heart, and he hates his enemies for their bravery.

As for him killing himself... that's less easy to explain with past scenes with Envy, but I think this one can be explained just be simply saying, Envy hit his limit. Envy had been humiliated to teh point where he'd rather die than endure it anymore. this sounds very Envy, he's hates being humiliated and being looked down on, and that moment when Ed feels sorry for him, is the very lowest he could hit. I gues that explains it? I'm not sure on that one,maybe someone else can try?

I'll post my full thoughts on the actual episode after the subs come out, but from the screencaps it does look like a good, very well put together episode.


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Flamez_Freak
post Apr 25 2010, 05:04 AM
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Well . . Claudius . . I can't help you wit the first part of your problem . . . . , cause i haven't watched the episode yet , and i dunno how brotherhood has handled the scene , but you do have a point about roy's character . . You know , there are some people who you need , to look after you . . . Don't use the word IF . . . IF PIGS HAD WINGS , THEY'D FLY . . . Now come on , i can understand roy . . I am like him in that sense , its just that he needs someone to help him out , he's human after all . . There are times when people get enraged , and they stop only when someone makes them understand the uselessness behind their rage . . . There are some people who struggle to take decisions on their own . . . (me) . All they need is someone to help them out . . That someone can be anyone , girlfriend , mother , brother , friend , comrade . . . Its certainly , not a character flaw , its just human nature . . .

And about envy , human nature is somethin he actually has mixed feelings for . . . He loves to hate it , but he hates to love it . . Its somethin like that . To be honest wit ya , i really think , envy considered humans to be superior to him , throughout the series , because of one factor , the EMOTIONS THEY SHARE (love , passion , care , kindness, courage , friendship) . But he never showed this complex of his , and instead , started degrading them . . . Its the SOUR GRAPES SCENARIO . . . If you like somethin , but you can't get it , you degrade it . . See , thats the explanation to the whole scenario . . . The main reason envy is named ENVY IS because although he is so so so powerful when compared to ordinary human beings , he lacks that one factor which he really admired and he is envious of humans , for that very reason . Hope you understand my point . .
Jealous rogo has explained the suicide thing pretty well , so i won't go over it again .
In a nutshell , lets take it like this , you want an ipod pretty badly , but no matter what you do , you can't get one for yourself . .Someone you despise , has it. . . And one fine day , that dude you despise comes from nowhere and gives you his ipod . . How are you gonna feel . . Won't you feel miserable , won't you feel pathetic . . Won't you feel like as if you've hit rock bottom . . . Thats how it is ..
And i hope i haven't gone off topic . . . Chiyo , forgive me if i have smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif


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Claudius
post Apr 25 2010, 08:00 AM
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Look, I'm not arguing that Roy should never have any supervision. Yes, there are times when you need someone to steer you to the right path. The thing is, it appears Roy always needs supervision. Somebody always helped him out, be it Hughes knocking down Lust's life-point or Riza threatening to go Mayerling on Roy for killing Envy. The only time Roy did something alone was trusting Raven in the Blackmail plot, which would not happen if Roy had done some homework or gotten some advice about Raven's character. This ended up blowing up on Roy's face. If this Envy-battle happened somewhere in the 40s, with Roy progressing to being his own objectivity man in future battles or situation, then fine. But this is happening rather late, and it gives the impression that Roy should never be left alone in situations like this. I'd be satisfied if Riza just aimed her gun at Edward and Scar not to interfere, then said: "Colonel, before you make your execution, tell me this. Is this what Colonel Hughes would have allowed?" Then Roy would realize as much pain he feels about his friend's death, he would be hurting Hughes as much as Envy did. This would give a better point to the later 'we need support' speech. Thus, in a way, Hughes gave Envy the harsh blow.
When I meant character flaw, I don't mean I'm faulting Arakawa or saying Roy is a lousy, one-dimensional person. I mean that Roy has a flaw, like all of us. Breasts are a character flaw for Havoc and Anime1Envy's flaw is his family issues.
And thank you for your explanations on MangaEnvy's Envy (though his suicide still is problematic). However, Jealous Rogo, I think his anger over Lust wasn't about camaraderie (he doesn't mention Lust with any significance during the battle, other than she died by Flame Alchemy). Rather, he was pissed that a human ant had destroyed a Homunculus, an insult that can't be allowed.
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Vicious74
post Apr 25 2010, 08:15 AM
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Lol @ people thinking Envy's jealousy of humans came out of nowhere. It's kinda sad when you need to have everything spoon-fed to you and fail to notice the obvious hints just because they are subtle instead of in-your-face.

Jealous Rogo (as usual I might add) has a great understanding of his character and explained it pretty well, but I'd also like to emphasize the most obvious part:



Honestly, if getting THAT pissed off and outraged by the fact that he's being looked down upon by humans doesn't SCREAM inferiority complex, which in turn naturally leads to ENVY, I don't know what does.

And srsly, why WOULDN'T he envy the bonds humans share? Just look at HIS bonds. Father only sees the homunculi as pawns. Wrath only talks to him to order him around and make him do the dirty work. Prides orders him around AND treats him like trash. Greed constantly mocks him. Gluttony and Sloth are too dumb to count. Lust was basically the only person in the world he seemed to have a decent connection with, and she was burned to death by the same man who reduced him to that miserable state. I mean, c'mon now.

As for killing himself, you've really got to not be paying attention to question that, when Riza said at least twice that SHE DIDN'T INTEND TO LET HIM LIVE AND WAS GONNA KILL HIM NO MATTER WHAT. In fact the only reason she didn't when he got out of Ed's hand was because Scar noticed that he didn't have much longer anyways.

So not only is he in a situation where he knows he's not gonna get out of alive, his whole entire life has been basically exposed as a pathetic lie of empty bravado AND the one who exposed it, the only person to ever realize and understand his true feelings, was one of the very humans he despises and envies the most. To Envy, that was naturally the ultimate humiliation. What did he have to live for after that, when the one thing that kept him going, his false claims of superiority over humans and delighting in the fact that they're pathetic creatures, had been exposed as BS and it had been made QUITE clear that he was the pathetic one there? Add to that the fact that he was gonna be killed regardless, and you can easily see 'suicide was his only option', lolz.

Anyways, loved the episode. Both Mustang's crisis and Envy's death were amazingly well done and the anime even added to them with some flashbacks to certain scenes and lines. Though I think they might've made Envy's death a little TOO dramatic. I don't think Arakawa's intent was for us to feel sorry for him (I mean he's still a complete monster) but simply to show how pathetic and humiliated he was in the end.

And I can see how some people might say Mustang and Envy's staredown was too long, but personally I felt it was perfect like that. Seeing Roy's face full of growing wrath and Envy's cowering in more fear with each moment. The tension was great.

Much like the corresponding chapter, it was hard for me to care about the stuff that happened after that when the first half was so good, but GARmstrong pwning Sloth was great nonetheless. And even though I don't care much for Izumi, the ending song made her entrance pretty cool. And of course, FINALLY the HHH vs Father staredown. Looking forward to that one.
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Broken Chouchou
post Apr 25 2010, 08:53 AM
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QUOTE (Mr. Deathy @ Apr 25 2010, 06:17 PM) *
This has to be one of the best executed episodes in the series. The pacing was perfect honestly and the animation was superb throughout.


This.

QUOTE (Mr. Deathy @ Apr 25 2010, 06:17 PM) *
Anyway 10/10 for the episode for me.


This. And everything in between.
Had me on the verge there a couple of times (yes, I'm weak for melodramatic music). Really an excellent episode.

Everyone's performances were great. Ani
mation was fantastic. Music was beautiful.

My faith in that this show can actually be amazing - and emotional - when it wants to has been reinforced (which, of course, just makes the crap parts - there's quite a few of those - and the rushed, understated events of the early story even more upsetting).

This is definitely getting favved.


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