HAGANE NO RENKINJUTSUSHI
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Episode 53 The Flames Of Revenge - Content Discussion Thread, Warning, possible spoilers for the first 53 episodes
Claudius
post Apr 20 2010, 03:36 AM
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QUOTE (Vicious74 @ Apr 19 2010, 09:20 PM) *
The Marcoh fight was crap. A major antagonist being 'pwned' and ridiculed just so a minor guy who'd been pretty much a non-character, just a lump of misery and self-loathing, could have a 'cool' moment is just plain stupid. Doubly so because, as RoyxRizaFan explained, it made the REAL meaningful Envy fight that was to come lose some of its impact.
You exaggerate MangaEnvy's position. In Anime1, he was a major antagonist, being- with Bradley- Darth Vader to Dante's Palantine (as well as signifying Edward's dark-side, the evil path not taken). In the Manga, Envy is relegated to Corporal Storm Trooper. For all his bluster and scary transformations, he's a poor combatant (as his battle with RanFan shows; Anime1Envy would have been a better match), he always underestimates the enemy, and gets OWNED by two Alchemists. Yeah, he started the Ishval War, but one gets the impression that this was a relatively easy job that Lust, Pride, and other Homunculus thought 'beneath their talents.' 'This is stupid! Let's get Envy to do this one! (the fact Anime1 had a different cause for the war makes MangaEnvy's achievement look even more pathetic). His only major part was killing Maes Hughes.
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FailToImpress
post Apr 20 2010, 05:40 AM
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QUOTE (Tian Ai @ Apr 19 2010, 11:44 PM) *
But as epic as the episode was, I snorted a little bit when I saw this: http://hi.baidu.com/hilalchemist/album/ite...cab211c7e8.html


Glad I wasn't the only one. laugh.gif That bit right at the end always gets me, they always pick the most random screenshot.
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Flamez_Freak
post Apr 20 2010, 07:44 AM
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And another thing i noticed from the preview , rearrangin Riza's 'Burn my back' scene from somewhere in the weakly done ishbal flashback to a part of the series , which has been excellently developed by bones is praiseworthy . . . And i think its gonna have more impact now . . . .


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Jealous Rogo
post Apr 20 2010, 08:00 AM
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QUOTE (Claudius @ Apr 20 2010, 04:36 AM) *
QUOTE (Vicious74 @ Apr 19 2010, 09:20 PM) *
The Marcoh fight was crap. A major antagonist being 'pwned' and ridiculed just so a minor guy who'd been pretty much a non-character, just a lump of misery and self-loathing, could have a 'cool' moment is just plain stupid. Doubly so because, as RoyxRizaFan explained, it made the REAL meaningful Envy fight that was to come lose some of its impact.
You exaggerate MangaEnvy's position. In Anime1, he was a major antagonist, being- with Bradley- Darth Vader to Dante's Palantine (as well as signifying Edward's dark-side, the evil path not taken). In the Manga, Envy is relegated to Corporal Storm Trooper. For all his bluster and scary transformations, he's a poor combatant (as his battle with RanFan shows; Anime1Envy would have been a better match), he always underestimates the enemy, and gets OWNED by two Alchemists. Yeah, he started the Ishval War, but one gets the impression that this was a relatively easy job that Lust, Pride, and other Homunculus thought 'beneath their talents.' 'This is stupid! Let's get Envy to do this one! (the fact Anime1 had a different cause for the war makes MangaEnvy's achievement look even more pathetic). His only major part was killing Maes Hughes.


Yeah MangaEnvy is the middle child of the Homunculus, he's above Gluttony and Sloth and give them orders, but he's constantly being put in his place by Wrath and Pride, his superiors. Case and point, go back and read the Manga (cause the anime left it out) and see what Envy's opinion of Pride is. He friggin hates the guy. Envy hates the fact that others can order him around.

If we go by the TV Tropes definition of the group of villaisn; Anime1Envy is the Dragon but in Manga... Envy's the Trickster at best.

On top of that, the ENTIRE POINT OF ENVY'S CHARACTER is that's he's an arrogant little sociopath who believes himself to not only be superior to humans, but also believes them to be insects and toys for his own amusement. So what happens when Marcoh, one of his toys, stands up to him? He gets taken down a few pegs and gets the just desserts he'd had coming to him for a while. That's why the Marcoh fight has a point.

THIS fight is about Mustang, with Envy just being his target in the end. This is about the fact that Mustang has lost sight of what his goal actually is. He sees Envy and instantly forgest that he's supposed to be trying to stablise the country and protect his loved ones, all he cares about is revenge. Envy, on the other hand, is humiliated once more, but this time in a different way. While the first time was about Envy's toys biting him in the arse, this time it's about Envy's callous disregard of human life coming back to bite him in the arse. You can tell Envy pretty much forgot about Hughes and didn't even give it two thoughts.



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Flamez_Freak
post Apr 20 2010, 08:51 AM
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Like jealous rogo pointed out , both fights are important . . And the similarity between both fights is that envy gets humiliated in both of them . . . . And i have to admit , power and authority wise , envy is below pride and wrath . . . He's on lust's level , ( only authority wise though . He'd own lust if they are pitted against each other) .
Another point of envy's character is projected during marco's fight , although he hates and despises humans , he falls down to such a level that he'd do anythin to survive (try to take over the weakest of humans , yoki , to survive )


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Vicious74
post Apr 20 2010, 12:13 PM
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QUOTE (Claudius @ Apr 20 2010, 11:36 AM) *
You exaggerate MangaEnvy's position.


No, I don't.

You exaggerate AnimeEnvy's though. He had like 15 minutes of screentime in the entire series there.

Being "major" in a story has nothing to do with the character's position in the chain of power in the bad guys' group.

In the manga he's responsible for both starting the Ishval war and killing Hughes, which are easily two of the biggest causes of sorrow and suffering for the good guys. He's also the most prominent homunculus along with Wrath, having by far the most screentime and appearances. So yeah, he's a major antagonist. Period.

Also it's beyond moronic to fault him for losing against Ran Fan when it's obvious that if he had fought at full power he would've crushed her like he did Ed and Ling.

And the only reason he got 'OWNED' by Marcoh was because he was ordered not to kill him. He beat him 1 minute into the fight after catching him with his tongue and could have killed him right there and then.
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Chiyo
post Apr 20 2010, 12:23 PM
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We are going off topic here. Please keep this thread about episode 53 and find the relevant places on the forum to continue this current train of thought.


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penguintruth
post Apr 22 2010, 09:30 PM
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I know why I should love the episode, but I really didn't. The production values were extremely high, but I have real problems with this portion of the story, which are well-known by now.

It's enough that the fight is extremely exaggerated and one-sided, but felt so unnecessary, too. It's just not very good writing, and I expected more from Arakawa at this point of the manga.

Anyway, my full review is up on my blog. Also found on the first post of this topic.


Edited your post slightly penguintruth - Chi


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shanryelric
post Apr 23 2010, 08:29 PM
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.__.''
watch again in HQ. and WOW this is one of my favorite episode!! Roy's mad faces are really awesome biggrin.gif


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Tian Ai
post Apr 23 2010, 10:42 PM
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QUOTE
It's enough that the fight is extremely exaggerated and one-sided, but felt so unnecessary, too. It's just not very good writing, and I expected more from Arakawa at this point of the manga.


I can see where you're coming from, but Roy's flame alchemy isn't to be underestimated.
In the manga when Roy loses his sight they mention how his abilities were the most troublesome, out of all the alchemists present (including Hohenheim, Izumi...)!
His flames are very efficient in directly destroying the zombies, and the Homunculi... instead of just using basic alchemy to produce weapons to kill them over and over.

Envy also isn't the most battle-skilled Homunculi around. Pride did tell him his "skills were lacking".

And there's the cliche argument of Roy's power being 150% because of his Rage Mode tongue.gif (Which, obviously, is not a good argument, but... just throwing it out there)
So, I don't think it's necessarily exaggerated.

P.S. Reading your review, Envy closing his eyes wouldn't have stopped the flames... Roy can pinpoint, and they'd just burn his eyelids away as well, eh?



Anyways, don't look at my Roy-fan outer appearance, I was also surprised at how easily Roy was kicking Envy's arse. Wasn't very realistic.
It probably would have been better had Envy been able to pull off a trick or two on Roy during the battle.


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Vlyse
post Apr 23 2010, 11:01 PM
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Envy clearly had potential to do some damage. He almost knocked out Roy with the rubble of that door.


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Flamez_Freak
post Apr 23 2010, 11:17 PM
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envy got overwhelmed mainly because he was not expecting roy to stand a chance against him.....
the moment he thinks about lust....he runs away like a coward.......


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Chiyo
post Apr 24 2010, 01:13 AM
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I have removed some of your posts. So I don't have to again would you KINDLY PAY ATTENTION TO ME.

Quick, short one line words are spam. Nobodies opinion is more correct than anyone else's. Everyone is entitled to voice their opinion, as long as they don't tell anyone else they are wrong. If you want to have a debate with someone DO IT VIA PM and stop clogging up discussions.

If you don't like penguintruth's opinions, why not say so on his blog? I'm certain he won't mind and will appreciate discussion being taken there.


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Forsaken Love
post Apr 24 2010, 01:37 AM
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lol omg i LOVE envys VA. The mement I heard it in the begining of the series it instantly became one of my favourite things of brotherhood XD His performance this episode I thought was brilliant, I loved it when he was talkin to Roy before their fight, reminds us of how deliciously evil and twisted envy is XD and his screams of agoney were also really well done hahaha, fantastic voice acting, made the episode for me


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Flamez_Freak
post Apr 24 2010, 01:52 AM
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QUOTE (Chiyo @ Apr 24 2010, 01:43 PM) *
I have removed some of your posts. So I don't have to again would you KINDLY PAY ATTENTION TO ME.

Quick, short one line words are spam. Nobodies opinion is more correct than anyone else's. Everyone is entitled to voice their opinion, as long as they don't tell anyone else they are wrong. If you want to have a debate with someone DO IT VIA PM and stop clogging up discussions.

If you don't like penguintruth's opinions, why not say so on his blog? I'm certain he won't mind and will appreciate discussion being taken there.



ya.......i didnt start an argument either......just said that everyone is entitled to his/her opinion.....


My Final thoughts about this episode

this episode starts of slowly....with mrs bradley being interviewed by a LaME radio channel...and she ends up blaming the central army for watever has happened in central over the past few hours...(masterstroke from roy and gang)......i lol'd at that guy's acting wen he was on the phone...that was so funny...ahahahaha......

from then on , the scene shifts to lab 3 , where all the action begins........all i can say is that roy was freakin kickass in this episode.....burned envy up pretty badly.....and the action sequences were so beautiful to watch, BONES has outdone itself this time around and surely , i could not have asked for more....the episode ended with a great cliffhanger moment....and i really dont think the preview has spoiled anythin...its not that obvious..........
the preview looks awesome and i cant wait for the next episode...............



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