HAGANE NO RENKINJUTSUSHI
HAGANE NO RENKINJUTSUSHI
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Chapter 86 "Regular" Discussion Thread For First Time Readers (and Others), No future chapter spoilers here, please. :)
Gukumatz
post Aug 18 2008, 10:31 PM
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QUOTE(Summoner Colette @ Aug 17 2008, 06:18 PM) *
Er, his master, because that's more or less a direct quote from Gandhi.


That was the translator's work, don't forget, and most likely made as a direct quote on purpose because of its recognition value. You have to ask the translator what it said literally before you assume anything. If Scar's master said the Japanese version of Gandhi's quote, as Japanese people would recognize it, then Arakawa probably intended that specific reference.

QUOTE(Anzu Mazaki @ Aug 18 2008, 10:01 AM) *
What I have really been waiting to see is what is going to happen with that piece of the Philosopher's Stone that Kimblee dropped and either Darius or Heinckel picked up. I feel like that is going to come in play with an important role but as of now it seems that its completely forgotten. Ed hasn't even thought about it, although he might've assumed that Kimblee picked it up after Darius and Heinckel left with the injured Ed. tongue.gif


Oh my God, I had completely forgotten that stone. You're right. It can't just be forgotten like that. It HAS to come up. *Now very expectant*

And as always: Thanks for the spoiler summary, the spoiler summary translation, the manga raw, and the manga chapter translation. smile.gif


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HisshouBuraiKen
post Aug 21 2008, 01:33 PM
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QUOTE(Gukumatz @ Aug 19 2008, 01:31 AM) *
QUOTE(Summoner Colette @ Aug 17 2008, 06:18 PM) *
Er, his master, because that's more or less a direct quote from Gandhi.


That was the translator's work, don't forget, and most likely made as a direct quote on purpose because of its recognition value. You have to ask the translator what it said literally before you assume anything. If Scar's master said the Japanese version of Gandhi's quote, as Japanese people would recognize it, then Arakawa probably intended that specific reference.


You are correct. I'm not sure how Ghandi's quote is normally translated into Japanese, but I assure you what he said carried the exact same meaning.

::makes a mental note to look that up later::

QUOTE(Sannom @ Aug 18 2008, 02:43 PM) *
That would be assuming that Glutonny's stone is a "normal" stone, whitch it is not. The Homonculus stones are "different", they are linked to the spirit and body of the Homonculus, and can't be used for anything else than regenerating him. Mustang tried with Lust's stone, it didn't work.


What Ropespinner said. Mustang got nailed before he could use the stone for anything. Whether Ed used Envy's stone itself or the souls making up his true form (or indeed, whether those souls were part of the stone itself or separate entities) is up for debate. However, I still think that with all the volatile elements in place, we're going to see more than just Pride and Gluttony being fended off.
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Sensenic
post Aug 21 2008, 05:28 PM
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QUOTE(HisshouBuraiKen @ Aug 21 2008, 10:33 PM) *
QUOTE(Sannom @ Aug 18 2008, 02:43 PM) *
That would be assuming that Glutonny's stone is a "normal" stone, whitch it is not. The Homonculus stones are "different", they are linked to the spirit and body of the Homonculus, and can't be used for anything else than regenerating him. Mustang tried with Lust's stone, it didn't work.


What Ropespinner said. Mustang got nailed before he could use the stone for anything. Whether Ed used Envy's stone itself or the souls making up his true form (or indeed, whether those souls were part of the stone itself or separate entities) is up for debate. However, I still think that with all the volatile elements in place, we're going to see more than just Pride and Gluttony being fended off.


The way I see it:

The hommunculi ARE the Stone.

In a hommunculus' stone there are:
  • souls - serve as "fuel" for the hommunculus' power as well as its lifespan.
  • 1 dominant soul - The hommunculus' own. See: Greed.
  • Information - At least the physical composition of the hommunculus, so it can regenerate itself from the stone anytime, its memories, so they don't lose 'em when their heads get blown, and the alchemy knowledge for their power (see: skin carbon hardening for Greed), so the hommunculus can use it.
That's why you can't use a hommunculus' stone as PS (therefore its souls as "alchemical fuel"), because the soul, the will of the stone is that of the hommunculus. You CAN use them, though, if the hommunculus willingly allows you, as was Envy's case when he allowed some of his souls (lifespan) to be used by Ed as Toll for the Doors.

And yes, the souls Ed used from Envy come out from the stone (you could clearly see it how they came out from there when Ed was swallowed), it's just that in Envy's lizard form case the souls take physical form (since he is a shapeshifter and all the stuff) when they come outside.


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RoyxRizaFan
post Aug 21 2008, 06:44 PM
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Im still worried about Mei, though...she hasn't been around for quite a while, and she's still off somewhere, with that manipulative shrimp...


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Izumi Sensai
post Aug 22 2008, 05:26 PM
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QUOTE(RoyxRizaFan @ Aug 21 2008, 09:44 PM) *
Im still worried about Mei, though...she hasn't been around for quite a while, and she's still off somewhere, with that manipulative shrimp...


Wait she's not traveling with Ed.....Oh, you mean the other Shrimp.
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Sorry, I just couldn't resist.
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Firearm Alchemis...
post Nov 2 2008, 01:48 AM
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~ General Grumman. Good Or Evil? ~

So as I read the manga, Grumman appeared to be evil and wants to get roy and his gang into trouble. However, I still believe he is a nice man and is only pretending to be evil to throw King Bradley off or something. I mean if you think about it there are lots of twist in FMA's manga plot and this might also be one. So I'm askin every one. Do you think Grumman is evil or not?
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Sannom
post Nov 2 2008, 02:54 AM
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Depends on your definition of "evil". If you think that betraying Mustang in order to reach a greater good is evil, then yes. The things Mustang has done so far (kidnapping miss Bradley) seem to brand him as traitor... in fact, it seems that he does everything to make the job easier for Grumman's plan.
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Little Fixster
post Nov 6 2008, 11:09 PM
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I'm not really sure.
I've always thought he was good, but recent events...well...don't make him seem quite as good anymore.
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jacksparrow589
post Nov 7 2008, 06:34 PM
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The way I read the section where he schemes to get betray Mustang & co. was this: the thought bubbles may be coming from his head, but it is Miles who says something like, "He'd probably do something like that."

Personally, I think that because Miles' thought is inserted in there, we can't know for sure. I'm holding out hope, though. There are few exceptions as to the people we can't figure out from the beginning. Selim is the most glaring exception I can think of, and even then, I berate myself for not seeing that one coming.

Again, though, Arakawa could have totally snowed us all with Grumman's inital appearance, although as to why he'd change this late in the game, I have no idea. Most everyone has picked sides before now and has clearly stayed on them. Ed and Al and everyone, the upper ranks of the military and the Homunculi, Olivier (seriously, the woman's a team unto herself), and Scar and his motley crew.

On the whole, I think he's only acting.


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Turdaewen
post Nov 9 2008, 07:00 AM
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Yeah... I still have my doubts too, 'cause it does seems like it was only Miles' imagination. And considering Grumman is the master of disguise and dissimulation, anything could come up.

But I would rather he was planning something else with Mustang-tachi, because it would be a shame for him to be actually a bad guy.


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Sannom
post Nov 9 2008, 08:45 AM
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QUOTE
But I would rather he was planning something else with Mustang-tachi, because it would be a shame for him to be actually a bad guy.


Considering that Mustang has done everything to be labeled as an enemy of the state, I think that Grumman's thinking was actually a plan he made up with Mustang : Roy becomes a enemy, takes care of the rotten ones at the very top, and after this Grumman can take the power in the name of the state, and bring the changes his country needs.
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Turdaewen
post Nov 9 2008, 10:51 AM
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QUOTE(Sannom @ Nov 9 2008, 01:45 PM) *
QUOTE
But I would rather he was planning something else with Mustang-tachi, because it would be a shame for him to be actually a bad guy.


Considering that Mustang has done everything to be labeled as an enemy of the state, I think that Grumman's thinking was actually a plan he made up with Mustang : Roy becomes a enemy, takes care of the rotten ones at the very top, and after this Grumman can take the power in the name of the state, and bring the changes his country needs.

Yeah... It could be that. I just don't like the idea of him betraying them because not only his Hawkeye's grandfather, his Mustang's mentor.
I don't know, but maybe they have a bigger plan, involving General Armstrong at Central, Grumman in the east and Mustang-tachi arresting Mrs. Bradley, I'm guessing somehow this is all connected.

But that's just my hope. XD We'll have to wait the next chaps to see.


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jacksparrow589
post Nov 9 2008, 02:55 PM
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^I like that theory. Pretend that the other guy's the bad guy, even though we all know he isn't. Then, since your views are so similar, act like it's all a surprise, take over, and implement the same ideas.

But I don't think Olivier is part of it. I really think she's her own side in this thing. Whatever side convinces her that her wishes can be fulfilled is the one she'll go with.


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AA battery
post Nov 10 2008, 02:00 AM
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Debatable, and depends on what the definition of "evil" is. I don't think he'd go as far as going to the homunculus' side, but I think there may be a good chance that he's only using Mustang and the others to reach a higher goal (as someone has already mentioned), such as, becoming the next fuhrer (I would totally not be surprised if that really happens).

I don't see the chance of Mustang becoming fuhrer as well, to be honest. One of the main reason would be... he is too young. Have you seen much presidents and such in their 30's? Obama is in his 40's and that's still pretty young for a president of a country. Roy just doesn't seem to have enough experiences to become a fuhrer. Grumman or Olivier are probably more capable. But then, Olivier is pretty young, too. Well, older than Mustang... but I think she's probably only in her late 30's?


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Sensenic
post Nov 10 2008, 09:41 AM
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I still think that scene only depicted Miles' imagination, so I said "good".
He's certainly not on the hommunculi's side, that's for sure.

And about Mustang, AA, remember he doesn't really intend to be Führer, or at least not for long: as soon as he seizes power, his intentions are to declare Amestris a democracy with eligible government, start disarming and diplomatic relations, etc. Soon afterwards he and his men will become war criminals and be judged as such, blah blah.

right, Riza?

Sannom's theory is a good one too, and it does fit this self-sacrificing attitude.


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