HAGANE NO RENKINJUTSUSHI
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FMA-1 Vs. FMA:Brotherhood Discussion: Comaparing FMA-1 anime series vs FMA:Brotherhood, How each/both series measures up in your opinion? (Spoiler Warning!
FMA-1 Vs. FMA:Brotherhood Discussion: Comaparing FMA-1 anime series vs FMA:Brotherhood
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Dark-Winds
post Jan 22 2011, 09:24 PM
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QUOTE (Turdaewen @ Jan 22 2011, 10:13 PM) *
To be perfectly honest, I don't care for fights myself. It's fun, but it's hardly a reason for me to watch any series AT ALL.
I think it's funny that many people like FMA:B for its fights and that many FMA 1 fans use that as an argument as to why they don't like FMA:B... Cause, for me, I couldn't care less for the fights in both animes! lol
Not that I don't enjoy the fights and everything and I do agree that the fights in FMA:B are a lot more exciting, but they're hardly a main point in an anime, for me. And, if a series is 'all about the fights', I don't even trouble myself to watch it.
I'm all about the story, and the symbolism in the stories... and THAT's what catches my eye. (and what did catch my eye in the manga)

So I think it is rather funny to see people who say "people like FMA:B for the fights", cause, in my case, it couldn't be farthest from the truth.


I agree with you on this point.

Though the fight in FMA: Brotherhood are amazing, what really catches my attention is the story as a whole. Usually when the fight scenes happened in the manga, I would read them quickly so that I could get back to the story portion.


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KingLes98
post Jan 23 2011, 01:07 AM
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I did some thinking, read a bit of the manga and watched a bit more of Brotherhood (on episode 36) and I think this is a fair arguement.
I think Brotherhood really didn't have any thought put into it, which is why it comes off as emotionaless. If you've felt anything it was because of the manga NOT because of Brotherhood. I think this is because Fullmetal Alchemist needs to have some modifications to translate well into a series format or else it'll come off as typical which is why I saw it as a typical shonen series filled with fight scenes and such.
Brotherhood seems like it tried too hard to be epic (which the manga is but Brotherhood seems more Hollywood epic) thus killing the point of what Fullmetal Alchemist actually is... FMA is a journey not an epic. It really wouldn't hurt my feelings if the same team who worked on the first anime also did Brotherhood, infact I think if they did then we would have the perfect adaption of FMA, unfortunately that's just a dream now.
Hope we can all agree on this, I thought about this last night while trying to sleep lol.
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Turdaewen
post Jan 23 2011, 05:38 AM
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Actually, all the people who I have recomended to watch FMA:B haven't read the manga and ALL of them felt the same excitement and emotion I felt while reading the manga, so, I don't think so.
And since I work at the biggest FMA portal in Brazil, I can say I have talked to many, MANY people about FMA.

Even so, I think the big difference is: people mistake having depth with making you cry or being "emotional", which is not the case.
So, yeah, FMA 1 IS more emotional, in a sense that it is MADE for you to cry and feel attached to the characters. (not in my case, cause I really don't like when people get dramatic)
But Arakawa's works are not like that. Her depth (and FMA:B's depth) has little to do with "being emotional". It's a lot more RATIONAL, of psychological development, about thoughts and ideals and the way a certain character 'sees the world' and how that's changes due to certain relationships and experiences. And THATs the point of manga: not friendship (that's just a side track). And if people thought it was all about friendship... well, I suggest you look at it again.
Friendship is Edward's path because that's what he needs to learn (that's his lesson given by Truth): to trust people. But, Al, for example, his journey is about independence. Hohenheim's is about facing his 'dark side', and so on a so forth.

But the main idea of the series is the same of the one in Alchemy: human transmutation. Using your experiences to become a better person, a different person.

But back to the subject of emotion. FMA:B only brings emotion if you really get the process that these characters are going through and connect to it. But it is not intendedly put to MAKE you emotional, it's a consequence.
In that sense, Arakawa is very similar to Jane Austen, for example: if you look at her books' plot, they're strikingly simple. Almost lame. But she takes you into the character's development through situations that seems "daily" to show you how that person has built their convictions. And that's what happens not only in the manga, but in FMA:B and in ALL of Arakawa's serious works: how the characters build their convictions.


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Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici
"By the power of truth I, while living, have conquered the universe"
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Kirara
post Jan 23 2011, 06:35 AM
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The manga is my favorite but I do know of many people who only watched Brotherhood and loved it.

QUOTE
Even so, I think the big difference is: people mistake having depth with making you cry or being "emotional", which is not the case.
So, yeah, FMA 1 IS more emotional, in a sense that it is MADE for you to cry and feel attached to the characters. (not in my case, cause I really don't like when people get dramatic)
But Arakawa's works are not like that. Her depth (and FMA:B's depth) has little to do with "being emotional". It's a lot more RATIONAL, of psychological development, about thoughts and ideals and the way a certain character 'sees the world' and how that's changes due to certain relationships and experiences.


I totally agree with this. For example we have the Al VS Kimbley and Pride fight my favorite part of that was not the fight itself but when Al decides to use the philosopher stone so those people would have a chance to fight too. It's this growth and understanding of his character which makes the scene special.


QUOTE
But, Al, for example, his journey is about independence


I would argue that both Ed & Al have to learn to trust people besides themselves but yes this is probably more focused overall on Edward.

I do think not friendship necessarily but the strength of many VS the strength of one or a few is a theme of the manga that is separate from Ed's growth although it ties into it.

But I agree with you what each character got out of the journey was different. And I believe we become attached to these characters because we watch them grow & change not because we feel sorry for them.
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S.F. Thunder
post Jan 23 2011, 07:29 AM
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I think that the manga/Brotherhood had a million lessons, at least, a couple for each major character and maybe one for every minor character. It's most certainly not just about friendship, as Turdaewen said. Ed learns about trust, Al learns about independence, Roy and Scar learn about the futility of revenge and the importance of acceptance, Winry learns about love and the importance of a supporting role.... Even Havoc and Falman learned lessons, as did the chimera characters from Briggs, and I'm sure even Yoki picked something up from his adventures. I don't think the manga was so much supposed to be about the plot as the plot was fashioned in the most effective way to teach the characters and show their growth. And every character's growth and the lessons they learn contribute to the message in the story.


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Misty- Nala
post Jan 23 2011, 08:33 AM
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QUOTE (rosieechan @ Jan 22 2011, 09:04 PM) *
QUOTE
My favorite in Brotherhood was Al VS Pride & Kimbley.

As I said before I don't care too much about fight scenes however nice animation is a plus and fight scenes are usually when animators really go all out.


THIS. I don't care for fight scenes either. When I'm watching something I usually skip them. But Brotherhood has amazing animation when it comes to fight scenes! The effects are really well done.



I hate fighting in anime also. I know they're important and some of them can be quite impressive but I never pay much attention to them and usually don't watch them again. I don't know, I have always found battles in FMA quite boring. In all other anime I have seen (there are not many) battles have only been stupid, take Sailor Moon for example.

Usually when characters start fighting, I scream in my head: "Get back to the story! Can't you talk about things? Why do you need to fight?!"

Exception to the rule, there is this one battle scene I must partly watch time after time and I think it looks pretty neat. Guess which it is? Greed vs Ed fight is partly repeated in Link, the opening song for CoS.


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Turdaewen
post Jan 23 2011, 08:50 AM
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QUOTE (Kirara @ Jan 23 2011, 11:35 AM) *
QUOTE
But, Al, for example, his journey is about independence


I would argue that both Ed & Al have to learn to trust people besides themselves but yes this is probably more focused overall on Edward.

I do think not friendship necessarily but the strength of many VS the strength of one or a few is a theme of the manga that is separate from Ed's growth although it ties into it.

But I agree with you what each character got out of the journey was different. And I believe we become attached to these characters because we watch them grow & change not because we feel sorry for them.

I say that about Al because of what Truth has taken from him. As Father has said during the final struggle "a boy who wanted to feel his mother's warmth".
He was always counting on Ed to do everything for him, to be always "taken care of and attended to" and not having to decide things, always expecting someone else to comfort him. Afraid of being alone or having to do things himself...

Ed, in the other hand, always wanted to be "the independent one", not trusting other people being the one who can "look after himself". He was always saying how he "didn't need Hohenheim", as if he was the 'man of the house' his father left. He was terrified at the idea of having to depend on someone else for anything and was terrified when Hohenheim reappeared (these last thing was said by Arakawa herself, actually), because he didn't want to have to deal with someone that had any kind of power over him.

So, yeah, his journey is quite different from Ed's, although they're going through it together.


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Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici
"By the power of truth I, while living, have conquered the universe"
Faust, Göethe
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Kirara
post Jan 23 2011, 09:11 AM
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QUOTE (S.F. Thunder @ Jan 23 2011, 08:29 AM) *
I think that the manga/Brotherhood had a million lessons, at least, a couple for each major character and maybe one for every minor character. It's most certainly not just about friendship, as Turdaewen said. Ed learns about trust, Al learns about independence, Roy and Scar learn about the futility of revenge and the importance of acceptance, Winry learns about love and the importance of a supporting role.... Even Havoc and Falman learned lessons, as did the chimera characters from Briggs, and I'm sure even Yoki picked something up from his adventures. I don't think the manga was so much supposed to be about the plot as the plot was fashioned in the most effective way to teach the characters and show their growth. And every character's growth and the lessons they learn contribute to the message in the story.



Winry also developed in wanting to shoot Scar for killing her parents to not forgiving but enduring and working together. She was one to really get through to Scar to end the cycle of violence

QUOTE (Turdaewen @ Jan 23 2011, 09:50 AM) *
I say that about Al because of what Truth has taken from him. As Father has said during the final struggle "a boy who wanted to feel his mother's warmth".
He was always counting on Ed to do everything for him, to be always "taken care of and attended to" and not having to decide things, always expecting someone else to comfort him. Afraid of being alone or having to do things himself..

Ed, in the other hand, always wanted to be "the independent one", not trusting other people being the one who can "look after himself". He was always saying how he "didn't need Hohenheim", as if he was the 'man of the house' his father left. He was terrified at the idea of having to depend on someone else for anything and was terrified when Hohenheim reappeared (these last thing was said by Arakawa herself, actually), because he didn't want to have to deal with someone that had any kind of power over him.

So, yeah, his journey is quite different from Ed's, although they're going through it together.



You misunderstand me I am not saying that Ed and Al's journey's are exactly the same but there were certainly instances in the manga where Al along with Ed went off without trusting anyone: Lab 5 for example it's important to note that both Ed and Al are disciplines by Maria & Denny. It is also Ed and Al together who finally talk to Olivier for example. So like I said this theme might be tied more into Ed's character growth specifically (I am not disagreeing with that) but it seems to me that both Ed and Al had to open up to other people instead of just relying on each other. Perhaps this did come easier for Al though than Ed.


I am also not sure if I agree that Al's journey is merely independence. He never really seemed to have issues going off without Ed or making his own decisions. I think Al's growth is more in understanding that Al is still Al no matter what body he is. Accepting he is human even in the armor but still wanting his body back but not at the expense of anyone else. When Al is told he can't save the world and get his body back. He replies No I will have both. Al believes in himself but he also believes in Ed and others to reach that goal. Al does make an important independent decision in the 2nd to last chapter when he goes back to the other side with May's help but he also does this because he has faith that Ed will bring him back


edit: Although I am not saying you are wrong about the independence aspect. Sometimes when it comes to themes people can get more than one thing out of story and I do think there is a lot to get out of FMA.
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JackDawkins
post Jan 24 2011, 12:12 AM
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QUOTE (Turdaewen @ Jan 23 2011, 09:50 AM) *
I say that about Al because of what Truth has taken from him. As Father has said during the final struggle "a boy who wanted to feel his mother's warmth".
He was always counting on Ed to do everything for him, to be always "taken care of and attended to" and not having to decide things, always expecting someone else to comfort him. Afraid of being alone or having to do things himself...

I honestly have no idea where you're getting this from. Not trying to dismiss your opinion or anything but I've really never seen Alphonse this way (in the manga). I've always seen him as perfectly capable of being independent of his brother and taking care of himself. He made decisions of his own, had a conviction and strength all his own, not dependent on Ed. He could certainly handle himself in a fight and was never afraid. I think throughout the whole series Al's always showed an incredible strength within himself. To be able to live in that body at all shows how strong he is, his ability to not live in fear and misery, but rather be strong and believe in himself and those around him, to carry on and have hopes and dreams and try to achieve them with his own strength. I think Al believed strongly in his brother, but I don't think he ever needed Ed to do everything for him, always take care of him, comfort him, etc. They needed each other as much as two brothers in such a situation would but I think Al was perfectly independent and took care of Ed, and many others in his life, as much as Ed took care of him.
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Turdaewen
post Jan 24 2011, 07:57 AM
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QUOTE (JackDawkins @ Jan 24 2011, 05:12 AM) *
QUOTE (Turdaewen @ Jan 23 2011, 09:50 AM) *
I say that about Al because of what Truth has taken from him. As Father has said during the final struggle "a boy who wanted to feel his mother's warmth".
He was always counting on Ed to do everything for him, to be always "taken care of and attended to" and not having to decide things, always expecting someone else to comfort him. Afraid of being alone or having to do things himself...

I honestly have no idea where you're getting this from. Not trying to dismiss your opinion or anything but I've really never seen Alphonse this way (in the manga). I've always seen him as perfectly capable of being independent of his brother and taking care of himself. He made decisions of his own, had a conviction and strength all his own, not dependent on Ed. He could certainly handle himself in a fight and was never afraid. I think throughout the whole series Al's always showed an incredible strength within himself. To be able to live in that body at all shows how strong he is, his ability to not live in fear and misery, but rather be strong and believe in himself and those around him, to carry on and have hopes and dreams and try to achieve them with his own strength. I think Al believed strongly in his brother, but I don't think he ever needed Ed to do everything for him, always take care of him, comfort him, etc. They needed each other as much as two brothers in such a situation would but I think Al was perfectly independent and took care of Ed, and many others in his life, as much as Ed took care of him.

I think you guys are being just a little too... radical, thinking that, since I said that, it means I think that's the ONLY thing that exist, which is not the case, I just raising a point, not the ONLY possible way to look at it. You can agree with it or not.

But, since you asked, I took that from chapter 102 of the manga, when Father is talking about the Truth and what and why Truth took those things from the alchemists.
Also from a few Arakawa interviews, when she's talking about the differences between Ed and Al, especially when she says Al is usually the one who wants to be 'rational', and how that's also a sort of escape of his from taking real action because he doesn't want to feel himself responsible (which is something that changes at the situation where he volunteers to capture Pride. Arakawa once said that that was a big change for Al, to actually face his fear of making things by himself and being the one who "takes action" for once, instead of Ed). And also from the gaiden Long Night and Arakawa's comments on it.

I never said it was MERELY about independence or that Al wasn't a "strong person". A person can be strong and choose to let other people make decisions for them, for fear of having to take responsibility. I do think Al is stronger than Ed, but, for a long period during the manga, didn't want to commit to the strength he has. It's easier to let Ed be the 'impulsive one' and always be "the voice of reason".

The fact that Al lost his body is not at all random, just as it's not random the fact of Ed lost his leg, that Mustang lost his sight and that Izumi lost her organs. So, Father IS right in a sense: Truth takes something away for a reason (which is not "Equivalent Exchange", or Roy would have lost nothing at all and all the "theories" about how Truth was unjust to Mustang would be correct). It's just not the reason Father thinks it is: the Truth is showing something to the Alchemists. Something they have to learn and overcome.

I really thought that it was crystal clear from the end of the manga that Truth only wanted the alchemists to redeem themselves.
And Al had to learn to be ok with being 'alone', sometimes. If not, what was all about the case of him sacrificing himself at the end to have Edward get his arm back? That was his redemption!


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Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici
"By the power of truth I, while living, have conquered the universe"
Faust, Göethe
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Kirara
post Jan 24 2011, 08:23 AM
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QUOTE
He was always counting on Ed to do everything for him, to be always "taken care of and attended to" and not having to decide things, always expecting someone else to comfort him. Afraid of being alone or having to do things himself...


You see minus "afraid of being alone at night" thing this sounds a lot more like first anime Al to me. I am just curious where do you think Al was dependent on Ed in the manga at all?

See I can kind of see not being afraid to be alone bit but not the dependence bit. I think they are two different things. And I guess you can say both Al's decision to go in the doors and hold Pride tie into this growth.

And on another note I am curious to read this interview with Arakawa about the differences between Ed and Al (seems to be one I missed and I like reading everything I can Arakawa says about the series).
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Turdaewen
post Jan 24 2011, 09:27 AM
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It's a bit old, actually. I think I saw it at Mobuta... but Mobuta is closed, now.

And I do agree that Al is more dependent in the first anime, but, though dependent is not exactly accurate, it's quite hard for me to find another word to define what I mean.

I guess it's a common thing as to think Al has 'not faults', since his problems, insecurities and etc are more implied, but he do has them as well as any other character in FMA. It would be silly of us to say the manga has 'more tridimensional characters' and say 'Al is perfect'.

Of course, this faults of his a lot enhanced in FMA 1 (as was Ed's), but that doesn't mean he's except of them in the manga,if you know what I mean.
The difference is that, in the manga, he acts like a normal person, not a "shadow" of Ed's. lol


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"By the power of truth I, while living, have conquered the universe"
Faust, Göethe
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Kirara
post Jan 24 2011, 09:53 AM
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Too bad about that interview. Maybe one day someone will find it again. Although I am hoping someone will translate as much as FMA chronicles as possible.

QUOTE
And I do agree that Al is more dependent in the first anime, but, though dependent is not exactly accurate, it's quite hard for me to find another word to define what I mean.


Okay that is probably why we are having this misunderstanding we must be thinking of dependent in different terms.


QUOTE
I guess it's a common thing as to think Al has 'not faults', since his problems, insecurities and etc are more implied, but he do has them as well as any other character in FMA. It would be silly of us to say the manga has 'more tridimensional characters' and say 'Al is perfect'.


I don't think Manga Al is perfect at all although his faults do seem less defined than other characters including Ed. He holds things in as we can see from the Barry the Chopper instance, maybe he blames himself too much at times (Hughes), and maybe he can be too selfless.

In the selfless aspect I mean he doesn't want to get his body back if its at the expense of anyone else but later on Al grows to say I will get my body back no matter what and protect people. He is not giving up on others but not on himself either.
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Turdaewen
post Jan 24 2011, 11:02 AM
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Yeah, but I do think it's more to it than just being "Selfless". Selfless is a good thing. I think it can be considered as more of a "self annulling" conduct, at first. (that's it! that's the word I was after!!! lol)

And that's just another way of "trying to bring attention to oneself" as Ed's forwardness. His "funny man" side can show just that as well. (it's like "don't look at me, I'm not important") And we see, especially in the omakes that Al wants to be in the limeline just as well. But it's hard for him to step up and commit to what he wants. So he let people act in his stead and reserves the position of "centered man" to himself.

If he was trully selfless, he wouldn't be self destructing, for he would understand his importance to help other people... which is one of the greatest things at the end of the anime, when he gets the chance of getting his body back and refuses: at THAT time, he's really selfless, for understanding they NEED him to be able to fight.


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Faust, Göethe
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Kirara
post Jan 24 2011, 01:02 PM
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Right there is an extreme of being selfless and selfish. Al is not selfish for wanting his body back but he can want his body back and want to protect others. Al wants something for himself (nothing wrong with this) but not at the expense of others.

As for Al's decision back there I don't think it was just selflessness but intelligence and practicality too. He was not giving up on getting his body back forever he just knew it wasn't the right time. Of course it is hard to give up on something he was searching for so long when it is right in front of you but I think it would be different if he knew that was his last chance to get his body back. Admittedly I think he would give it up but then would keep trying and not believe it was the end.
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