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Question About Roy: About His Military Rank, And Related His Frame Of Mind, Etc. In The Movie, (Spoiler alert! ^)
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Reika
post Oct 22 2005, 05:21 PM
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true, now that you mention it, does someone know how does it work now??

Anyways... If he is so depressed and he doesn't want to become fuhrer... why is he still on the military. this is just some idea but, I was thinking, let's suppose he's so depressed that he doesn't want to even join the parlament higher ups, nor become fuhrer nor anything, he doesn't use alchemy and he doesn't even see Riza, he's depressed because of the crimes he made... Then why is he still on the military?What's he doing in the front lines? I don't know... wouldn't he be happier being a ... *shrugs* baker? XDD (For example), At least he wouldn't be killing more people, that is one of the reasons of his suffering.

Or do you think it's just autotorture? ^^U


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seventh_sky
post Oct 22 2005, 05:33 PM
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What she said XD

I just really don't think Roy would ....give up so easily, you know? Giving up his postion seems like giving up to me.


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Katana Alchemist
post Oct 22 2005, 06:45 PM
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there's some things i don't you guys are all considering...
roy is supposed to be a human being. he is not a moral compass or an instrument that automatically does the thing where he would be most useful. his stated goal is to help (actually, i don't even believe he ever says that. he says "to change the way this country works") but he there's more going on here than just his duty to accomplishing his goals.
i think we can all agree then, that just because something might be the best course of action for him to take in whatever goals he has, doesn't mean that he chooses it. he's not perfect and there are some other factors here.
-guilt is the big one. we know he killed a lot of people, he killed the rockbells, he somewhat blames himself for hughes' death, and i'm going to guess he now blames himself for what seems to him to be the death of ed.
-he doesn't think highly of himself as a human being. throughout the series he says things like "i wasn't even able to pull the trigger," "even a life like mine has some use," and "us alchemists are such sick predictable things." at least at the end of the ishbal rebellion, the only reason he has for living AT ALL is his mission to transform the country. that's it.
-command has its benefits and its risks. though you can change things from the top a lot more, you also open yourself up to much more responsibility and potential for guilt.
-he doesn't have to worry about being given outrageous orders to do horrible things. he has stated quite clearly he will never follow them.

ok then, here's what i think has happened. his goal of changing the country accomplished, roy honestly sees no reason to retain his rank. he's likely sick of having blood on his hands, he views himself as some sort of sinner, etc. plus, it's a reality in the army that the lives of officers are of a higher priority than the lives of foot soldiers (this isn't unfair, it's just so that the leadership can stay intact. otherwise everyone might die).
in one way, you could perhaps view his self-imposed exile as a little selfish. he doesn't want to hurt anyone else, so he's surrendering leadership and having to make decisions so that he is only responsible for himself.
he carries a gun because he's just a normal foot soldier.

then the crisis in central happens. roy puts his little pity party on hold and comes into central. notice how he instantly takes command. he is a natural leader, and the fact he's doing it all in a soldier's uniform just shows how ridiculous things are otherwise.
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Guest_Ladymercury (unable to log in)_*
post Oct 22 2005, 07:26 PM
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Sorry I am failing to think outside that box. rolleyes.gif

The military regime's political power was transferred to the Parliment (weither or not the parliment has elected officials is a different story). That is known. We already know he can't become a Fuhrer now. That's already been explained.

But what I am saying that makes this OOC is:

Why would Mustang give up what he has EARNED over something he has dealt with and moved on with nearly ten years ago? The Ishbal, Hughes, and Coup incidents at the end of the anime were something he had accepted.

Riza: The plan was perfect.... But, because I didn't come in time
Mustang: There is no such thing as perfection, that's why this world is beautiful.

To:

Breda: Its just like you, Colonel, to choose such a rual area....
Mustang: I am doing what I can to serve my country...
Havoc: Colonel.
Mustang: I haven't used alchemy once since that day.
Breda: The Flame Alchemist....
Mustang: Why I try to, I see those who have passed away due to my foolishness. This eye.

It makes no sense. It makes no complete sense. From someone accepting the fact that this is why the world is beautiful to ' holy crap i'm emo all of a sudden over these events that I've obviously accepted two years ago ' makes no sense.

Why now? Why would he just give up something so easily? Why would he want to force himself into the front lines so easily which would involve him possibily killing again? Why give up the chance to have some position which could have him have some influence on the parliment? I mean, high military officials have some say in government. I mean, look at the four generals in the armed forces of the United States. Each of them report directly to the President.... The President is the Commander in Chief.

Each leader in the history of the world was always had some control over its military as a direct commander.

Roy is too cocky and to brash of a person to just give up everything to be a corporal. I mean, come on, a police officer? In the boonies? What can he do for his country in the nothern distric of Ametris? Everyone knows there's nothing up there, so why subject himself to solitude?

After the incident, he was still referred to as Brigader General Mustang. There was no mentioning of him being demoted for the incidents that happened, so the fact that he took the fall for everyone makes no sense. I mean, they reported the Fuhrer as 'missing'.... They never said he was 'murdered' since there was no body left to claim that Mustang did murder the Fuhrer.

Did Roy have a midlife crisis that involved him just heading into a state of major depression? I mean, with this line:

Havoc: Plus, I feel as if the person Colonel is waiting for isn't the Lieutenant...

Were they saying that Roy was waiting for Ed? That he was depressed over Ed's departure from their world? Why? Wasn't this issue put to rest in ep 49? Didn't they accept that fact that they might not see each other again? Why would Roy brood over Ed and not Hughes then?

There's just so much that makes Roy requesting for his own demotion out of character and not making any sense.

(and wow, did he get one major demotion... ribbons and everything are gone xD).

PS: Then again, we can't base everything on this current translation since when Mustang first meets Breda and Havoc he refers to them as Lieutenant and then at the end during the fight he refers to them as Ensign.

Obvious error.
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Tombow
post Oct 22 2005, 11:41 PM
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QUOTE (Katana Alchemist @ Oct 22 2005, 08:45 PM) *
.....ok then, here's what i think has happened. his goal of changing the country accomplished, roy honestly sees no reason to retain his rank. he's likely sick of having blood on his hands, he views himself as some sort of sinner, etc. plus, it's a reality in the army that the lives of officers are of a higher priority than the lives of foot soldiers (this isn't unfair, it's just so that the leadership can stay intact. otherwise everyone might die).
in one way, you could perhaps view his self-imposed exile as a little selfish. he doesn't want to hurt anyone else, so he's surrendering leadership and having to make decisions so that he is only responsible for himself.
he carries a gun because he's just a normal foot soldier.

then the crisis in central happens. roy puts his little pity party on hold and comes into central. notice how he instantly takes command. he is a natural leader, and the fact he's doing it all in a soldier's uniform just shows how ridiculous things are otherwise.

This is very similar to one of the possible explanations I came up with. and currently the most plausible one in my mind.
Still, the complete 180 from the end of series to what he was in the movie caught me off guard, and I wonder there are more explanations.

@Ladymercury - I like your midlife crisis theory!! tongue.gif


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Reika
post Oct 23 2005, 03:17 AM
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I agree in everything with Ladymercury, it's what I was trying to say, more or less.

QUOTE
After the incident, he was still referred to as Brigader General Mustang. There was no mentioning of him being demoted for the incidents that happened, so the fact that he took the fall for everyone makes no sense. I mean, they reported the Fuhrer as 'missing'.... They never said he was 'murdered' since there was no body left to claim that Mustang did murder the Fuhrer.


You don't need to look for what happened with his demotion in the series or movie, there was an article where BONES stated that Roy himself demoted himself. That means that no higher ups told him to be a corporal.

QUOTE
Havoc: Plus, I feel as if the person Colonel is waiting for isn't the Lieutenant...

Were they saying that Roy was waiting for Ed? That he was depressed over Ed's departure from their world? Why? Wasn't this issue put to rest in ep 49? Didn't they accept that fact that they might not see each other again? Why would Roy brood over Ed and not Hughes then?


This is something that I, sincerelly, refuse to believe. I thought and i hoped that the reason he was like that was Hughes (which wouldn't make much sense either to fall depressed after that much time), but not because the film leaves this clear, but because he suddenly appears out of the front lines, in front of hughes tomb, and then he makes his reapearition out of nowhere. Which made me think that his depression could have been because of Ed too, because he appears just when some strange things appear and who knows, maybe there were rumors about Ed being in Amestris again. Oh God, I hope it wasn't because of that... It wouldn't make much sense, would he be more depressed about Ed being gone than Hughes' dead??? If his reappearance it's not because of Ed's arrive to the world... why is he at that precise moment in Amestris? Why did he recover from his huge depression of two years long that didn't even let him use alchemy right now?

QUOTE
there's some things i don't you guys are all considering...
roy is supposed to be a human being. he is not a moral compass or an instrument that automatically does the thing where he would be most useful. his stated goal is to help (actually, i don't even believe he ever says that. he says "to change the way this country works") but he there's more going on here than just his duty to accomplishing his goals.


True, but does this mean that everyone should act the same way?

Not everypeople react the same way to the same facts, that's why everyone is unique and have their own personalities. The personality I noticed from Roy through all the series doesn't match with the way he reacts in the movie, besides the fact that it is too sudden for me. It goes from a "I won't give up" to a "I'm giving up on all" (that much as to make Hawkeye say "I don't want to see you in that state").

You can compare it with when Ed gave up on the PS because it used human lives, he did it because it was inside of him to do it, because he didn't want to kill anyone for his goals, but just because his personality and what's inside of him too is to not give up, which is one of the strongest points of his personality that comes out through all the series, he reacts once again like himself and once again takes the path of trying to recover their bodies back to normal, which is his goal, as Roy is to help change the country to the better and keep it good as best as it's possible. That's what makes them special. Another fact is that I think that by doing what he did... was like leaving Hughes die for nothing, and I don't think Roy would let that happen.

Of course he is a human being and because of that he can get all that depressed, but Roy has proved us that he has a very strong will and personallity that won't let him fall down so easily. And when I mean easily, I mean as easily as to give up on everything after he killed the "bad guy" (to put it in short) and was near the higher ups. And even if he would have such a "I give up" attitude, don't you think that Hawkeye and the rest wouldn't let him fall down? They've been there for him all those years, helping him, and supporting him, he's not alone, but still he went to such point that even Hawkeye left him alone (that, or Hawkeye is OOC (which I think she is too, not only because of this)).

QUOTE
Breda: Its just like you, Colonel, to choose such a rual area....
Mustang: I am doing what I can to serve my country...
Havoc: Colonel.


note the "I am doing what I can to serve my country"... Wouldn't he be more usefull in the higher ups? as Brigadier General or even Colonel? Being a corporal without alchemy just makes him a little pawn to kill people and kill himself when he's not of use or can't deffend himself.

To keep a character on character is to keep him reacting by some coherent personality standards that go through an equeally coherent reaction and attitude line (they balance each other and balance the character). Some could say that because he acted some "surprising" way in the movie or that he acted that way through some isolated point of the series etc that went ouf of that "line" he would act that way, but we could say that he was "out of line" too, or "out of character"(no matter how human it was that attitude), because it went out of the coherence the character showed through the series that kept the character balanced and developing in a coherent way. The result of this isolated reactions and attitudes is the unbalanced feeling it gaves us and the kind of questions of: "why is he that way? what happened? wouldn't he act this other way? Why did he say and do that? What's wrong with him? Don't you have a feeling that something's wrong with him?" Which is what many of us are wondering.

That's how I see it and that's why I say that Roy was OOC in the movie.


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Dai
post Oct 23 2005, 06:28 AM
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Hi people, I just realized something...

It is said (by Ross) that a National Alchemist, even if he is not in the military, has Major-like status... so even if Roy is demoted to corporal, he is still a national alchemist, isn't he? So the only way he is under his former friends (Havoc & co) is that he is National Alchemist no more.

Is it said in the movie?


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Reika
post Oct 23 2005, 06:30 AM
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It's not said, but I think you could take it that way since he dropped his title as "Flame Alchemist" too. He doesn't use alchemy anymore, so he can't be a state alchemist, right?


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Dai
post Oct 23 2005, 06:31 AM
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I suppose, but I think the movie should have cleared that things XD

thanks.


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Reika
post Oct 23 2005, 06:33 AM
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I think they tried to show and develope and show the consecuences of too much things that didn't explain and should have been explained in a very short time for all that.

I hope they do some OVAs or something to explain what really happened in between those years.


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Guest_Ladymercury (unable to log in)_*
post Oct 23 2005, 11:16 AM
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Reika: Thanks for agreeing with me XD I thought people were gonna rip me apart or something. Lol, umm, what I meant with the whole higher ups not demoting him was that there is this popular theory floating around that Roy took the blaim for everyone after the coup incident. XD I already knew that Roy volunteered, or supposedly volunteered.

Um....... If Roy is a corporal, that means he is not a state alchemist. Which means he even gave up that title. State alchemist are the equivalent of a major. lol

Major Edward Elric <-- lawl.
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Reika
post Oct 23 2005, 01:47 PM
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no need to thank me XD you just had the same opinion as mine XD, and yeah... sometimes I'm scared of talking too XD

I don't think he took the blame for everyone... they don't seem to mention anything about it in the movie...


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seventh_sky
post Oct 23 2005, 02:21 PM
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Everybody took what I was going to say XD

Seriously, though, I just don't think that he would give up all that he'd worked so hard for just like that because he felt 'unworthy' or something. When he felt bad about killing those doctors, he pledged to himself that he'd rule the military and fix things. If he feels bad now, why would he just all of a sudden decide to punish himself for no real reason?

(I apologize if that post made no sense XD)


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Guest_Ladymercury (unable to log in)_*
post Oct 23 2005, 03:05 PM
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XD Yay, so we're not all crazy in thinking that Roy is OOC. XD
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Reika
post Oct 24 2005, 09:20 AM
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XDDDDDDDDD no, I don't think so XD


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