HAGANE NO RENKINJUTSUSHI
HAGANE NO RENKINJUTSUSHI
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Xingese Alchemy Discussions, Caution! Much Spoilers
badluckartist
post Feb 20 2008, 12:41 PM
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~ A Theory On Just What Is "wrong" With Amestrian Alchemy: Compared to Xingese Alchemy, and how Mei Chan can sense it wrong ~


This is a thread I posted in another forum, but there is simply no traffic there for FMA, sadly. I was hoping I could get somebody's opinions on it... So, fire away :3

{{Good idea for a thread. I absolutely doubt that Arakawa would recycle an idea used in the anime for her manga. She's went pretty damn far out of her way so far to keep from paralleling it, why would she start now? I do have to admit though, Father temporarily closing the gate and kinking up the flow of energy from "the other side" would be the easiest way of explaining everything...

Badluckartist's theory on Amestrian Alchemy! Behold!!

We can look at alchemy this way- Xingese alchemy is pure in nature. It uses the earth's energy for it's power, and seems to be the antithesis to Amestrian alchemy. "There's something wrong with this country", is a phrase that has been said more than once, and I think it pertains to Amestrian alchemy's darker nature. It probably has to do with manipulation of life and death's energies on a much smaller scale than what is required to create a philosopher's stone.

Perhaps the processes of life and death create an ambient, permeable atmosphere of invisible energy that is harnessed for normal transmutations using the alchemist's own body (as well as the circle, and the knowledge of transmutation itself) as catalysts for the transmutation. This would also be a throwback to what Ling said about how it looks almost like Ed is praying to God when he transmutes by putting his hands together (in this case, praying to all of life and death).

I'd say manipulating life and death would qualify as "something wrong with this country", although that could be a reference to Father's devious plans for the country. As to how Father cut off Amestrian alchemy within that colossal radius, it's possible that he dispersed all the ambient particles of energy (those created from life/death), used them up all at once, or simply pushed them all away from his location. He payed no mind to the earth's energies (or couldn't do anything about them {or even didn't know that Xingese alchemy exists/ how it works}), thus Xingese alchemy remained perfectly usable.

This could also explain why the Xing people have never made a philosopher's stone- if they were to apply the same principle as Father does to the creation of his, the entire earth might just die out.

Phew. Yes, I just made that up off the top of my head. Spur of the moment genius, I know. Keep the applause going, it pleases me.}}
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Omamori
post Feb 20 2008, 01:44 PM
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Yes, yes, that makes a lot of sense.

Your 'life-and-death' theory of Amestrian Alchemy sounds plausible since that alchemy pretty much runs on the energy provided by Father, who is a Philosopher's Stone containing half the population of souls in Xerxes.

I was actually doing some research on the earth's energies yesterday and discovered that 'chi' (the Dragon's Pulse or Veins of the Dragon as it is known in FMA) is also known as 'life' or 'breath'. While Rentanjutsu is primarily based on the earth's flow, Renkinjutsu (Amestrian alchemy) is based on, as you put it, 'life and death' or 'a human's flow'. In other words, Renkinjutsu runs on a human's life-force while Rentanjutsu runs only on that of the earth.

Gah...I'd type more, but I gotta go!


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Petite-Parfait
post Feb 20 2008, 05:21 PM
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Way to use your brain, buddy; I like people like you. : D Yes, that's a very plausible theory, and I'd say more if I weren't in such agreement with your thoughts that anything I would say would be redundant.
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The random alche...
post Feb 20 2008, 06:03 PM
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Actually this theory to date makes the most sense, I actually had thought of it before but never could explain it as well as this. I just theorize that the alchemy is Amestrie is using life energy from the dead whiles that of Xing is from the Earth itself.
Thus the use of the alchemy in Amestrie is "wrong", And to keep the alchemy functional Father must need to supply constant deaths, which may explain all the wars he keeps making with other nations and within his own nation.
He's literally making Alchemy flow for as long as he needs Amestrie.


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Omamori
post Feb 20 2008, 07:00 PM
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QUOTE(The curious alchemist @ Feb 20 2008, 05:03 PM) *
Thus the use of the alchemy in Amestrie is "wrong", And to keep the alchemy functional Father must need to supply constant deaths, which may explain all the wars he keeps making with other nations and within his own nation.
He's literally making Alchemy flow for as long as he needs Amestrie.


You know, I hadn't thought of that; I just thought he had caused all the wars and ruckus in the different regions of Amestris for his plan with the country, and not for the country's alchemy.

Okay, I discovered the Wikipedia article for FMA alchemy. Apparently, badluckartist's 'life-and-death' theory was mentioned in the manga by the Xingese alchemist, Mei Chan:

Alchemy


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Omamori
post Mar 31 2008, 09:39 AM
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Hoo, nice topic!

You make some very good points. This actually does make sense, but here's something that bothers me: If RenkinJutsu runs on the souls of the dead, then is it possible for those performing the alchemy to use their own souls in the process? I believe Ed did this in chapt. 78 or 79 as a 'first-aid' precaution, but I still wonder...is it possible that they could be using their own souls in transmutations? And something else: if Father shut down the power to fuel RenkinJutsu again, could Amestrian alchemists use their own souls to perform that transmutations at that time as well?

RentanJutsu is another story: an alchemy based on "knowledge of the earth's flow". This flow is known as 'chi', which means 'life' or 'breath'. In vol. 12 of the manga, Mei Chan states that "in every living thing, there is a flow of energy...But if the flow has stopped in a certain area, I can't do anything", which regarded her healing alchemy.

I'm curious...Just what exactly is this flow in the human body? Is it the soul or the spirit? Fu, one of Ling Yao's body guards, comments that he cannot sense a flow of chi in Alphonse's body, yet his soul is in the armor. When RanFan senses one of the homunculi, she once states that she can sense twenty, maybe thirty souls nearby. So, what exactly is this flow that they're speaking of? I'm a bit confused by it.


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kitsunepixie
post Jul 15 2009, 01:14 PM
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Edit: sorry if this post seems abrupt; it was moved from another thread.

QUOTE (Vagrant @ Jul 15 2009, 01:15 AM) *
OT: By the way, this "rentanjutsu"? What's the official translation there? Just Xingese alchemy or...?


I think that they are officially calling it Alkahestry for the English adaption, but since I don’t read it, I could be wrong about that. I do know that the alkahest is the universal solvent in alchemic belief that can dissolve any substance, and was believed by some to be the Philosopher’s Stone. According to this Japanese Wikipedia entry, Rentanjutsu sounds very similar to alchemy (if that is in fact the correct kanji used in the manga, which I don’t have a copy on me right now here I’m at).

錬丹術(煉丹術、れんたんじゅつ)は、中国の道士の術の一つ。辰砂などから抽出した硫化水銀(丹)を原料とし、服用すると不老不死の仙人になれ、金も作れる霊薬(仙丹)をつくる。

"Rentanjutsu is one of the arts of Chinese Taoist monks. It uses mercury(II) sulfide (HgS) (丹tan) extracted from substances such as cinnabar as a raw material, which if taken makes one become an immortal who will not age or die (不老不死furoufushi), and will even make gold and a panacea (仙丹sentan)."

Maybe someone who dabbles in the Chinese occult would know? laugh.gif I asked my research adviser who is Chinese what his translation was, and he was like, "Uh...I don't even know what exactly that could even be." Probably like how most people have heard of alchemy, but they only have a vague impression of what it is.

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Serb Alchemist
post Jul 15 2009, 03:57 PM
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QUOTE (kitsunepixie @ Jul 15 2009, 10:14 PM) *
錬丹術(煉丹術、れんたんじゅつ)は、中国の道士の術の一つ。辰砂などから抽出した硫化水銀(丹)を原料とし、服用すると不老不死の仙人になれ、金も作れる霊薬(仙丹)をつくる。

"Rentanjutsu is one of the arts of Chinese Taoist monks. It uses mercury(II) sulfide (HgS) (丹tan) extracted from substances such as cinnabar as a raw material, which if taken makes one become an immortal who will not age or die (不老不死furoufushi), and will even make gold and a panacea (仙丹sentan)."



This is not just Chinese Occultism...
Nazis were trying the same, but, they used some old books from Slovenian people, mostly from Lusatian Serbs (Lužički Srbi), they use to live here, till the World War II, they were writing with gothic sign, and latin too... They call us Serbs in Balkans, the Southern Serbs, and them just Serbs, but they are wrong... We (Serbs in Balkan) are older as nation... Most of their books are written in Gothic... Many of them were in some occult guilds, and many of them were interested in "Kamen Mudrosti i Večni Život" (something like Philosophers Stone and rentanjutsu), and Hitler was interested in that... But, since they didn't know anything about that (in which I don't believe), he killed almost all of them... Now there are 100.000 Lusatian Serbs left, and they live in Germany, Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia... There are many towns in Slovakia and Czech Republic that have names like, Srpsko Selo, Mala Srbija, etc. (Serbian Village, Little Serbia...) I have read many books about their connection with alchemy, Philosophers Stone, and eternal life,... And I believe, they knew something,...


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Sannom
post Jul 16 2009, 10:20 AM
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I think there is actually no big difference between Rentanjutsu and Renkinjutsu in real life. They're just terms that were used to describe the same thing, and Arakawa made them two separate things : Renkinjutsu is associated to the use of alchemy in the western civilizations while rentanjutsu is associated to the chinese research in alchemy. She kept the core ideas of equivalent exchange, philosopher's stone and quest for immortality but made two different things for her own world, while in the real world they weren't so different.
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thunderbreak
post Jul 16 2009, 05:41 PM
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I'm not that well versed here,but as far as i know,some kings want to be immortal,and they try to make 仙丹,but using mercury and those elements u mention above,and the result is being poisoned
pictures link in google image

it often appears in traditional fantasy stories.
oddly enough,they look a bit like white orbs like this :

http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E7%82%BC%E4%B8%B9
link baidu
in chinese.i try to see if i can translate this.there's a lot of taoist terms i'm not good at it.


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Sannom
post Jul 16 2009, 06:46 PM
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QUOTE
but as far as i know,some kings want to be immortal,and they try to make


Well, there is a persian game at the time of the Roman Empire who has become quite famous because of his near-immunity to poison, thanks to him absorbing little doses of it every day. When he was defeated, I heard he had quite a hard time killing himself, and that he had to ask a servant to stab him in order to put him out of misery huh.gif I Think he ws named Mithridates VI of Pontus... old dude gave a hard to generations of Roman generals laugh.gif
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kkg22104
post Jul 18 2009, 06:11 AM
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QUOTE (thunderbreak @ Jul 16 2009, 08:41 PM) *
it often appears in traditional fantasy stories.
oddly enough,they look a bit like white orbs like this :

http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E7%82%BC%E4%B8%B9
link baidu
in chinese.i try to see if i can translate this.there's a lot of taoist terms i'm not good at it.


Hey, that white orb looks like a fruit called li zhi laugh.gif

Okay, I had to ask my parents about that Wiki article but even they don't know much about it because it's apparently related to some ancient Chinese medical stuff. Basically, they believed that the center of the body was in a small area (orb maybe?) slightly under your belly button (it's related to yin/yang too), and by doing different exercises (like breathing exercises) you can make yourself live longer. Sounds confusing, but it actually works, some people can lose and gain weight just by changing their breathing. Yeah...not sure if any of this is related to Rentanjutsu in FMA XD


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Tombow
post Jul 18 2009, 08:59 PM
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QUOTE (Vagrant @ Jul 15 2009, 04:15 AM) *
OT: By the way, this "rentanjutsu"? What's the official translation there? Just Xingese alchemy or...?

@Vagrant - Official English sub of episode 15 of FMA:Brotherhood anime on Funimation.com translated Xing Alchemsy as "Alkahestry," (as noted & predicted by kitsunepixie ^^) and an Alchemist who performs Xing Alchemy is translated as "Alkahestrist." smile.gif


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Vagrant
post Jul 20 2009, 01:24 AM
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Is that the official translation in the manga?


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Tombow
post Jul 20 2009, 01:54 AM
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QUOTE (Vagrant @ Jul 20 2009, 04:24 AM) *
Is that the official translation in the manga?

@Vagran - 1. You're welcome. 2. No, this is the official English translation for Xingese Alchemy in FMA: Brotherhood ANIME. You were asking for how it was called in FMA:B ANIME, correct? If you are asking an ADDITIONAL question of whether FMA manga uses the same translated word for Xing Alchemy, then the answer is no.

So far we find that FMA manga and FMA:B anime are using different names for same item/characters from Xing in several instances. In FMA manga we call Xing Alchemy "Rentanjitsu," although, according to North American English version of FMA manga Vol. 8, Xing Alchemy is called "Rendanshu." But, if you want to talk about Xing Alchemy in FMA MANGA, please go to Xingese Alchemy discussion thread. smile.gif

<Post moved. ^^>


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