HAGANE NO RENKINJUTSUSHI
HAGANE NO RENKINJUTSUSHI
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Episode 54: Beyond The Inferno - Content Discussion Thread, Warning, possible spoilers for the first 54 episodes
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IceSkadi
post Apr 27 2010, 09:49 AM
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QUOTE (Jealous Rogo @ Apr 27 2010, 06:18 PM) *
While people may argue that they dislike this portion of the manga, I defy anyone to not at least give props to teh VA work. Envy's VA in particular knockedit out of the park. No one is gonna be able to match her work. The scene was fantastic, so fantastic I cannot put it into words. I actually felt SORRY for Envy in the end. The way they handled the scene was just... sad. You finally saw Envy for the pathetic wretch he is.


I agree, Envy's VA was phenomenal in this episode. The whole cry scene was very intense and in my opinion slightly better than in the manga (probably because the voice has a great importance in this part).
I do really loved Roy's VA too, especially when he snapped to release all his anger/frustration/sadness.

The whole Envy's departure was really sad, sadder than Gluttony's one. I mean reading the manga I was impressed but watching this episode I was totally astonished. In particular the fact that during the Envy's eyecatch there wasn't the "Fullmetal-guy-voice" made all more serious.


I must admit that I would have preferred to see the whole "Mustang's revenge ark" in a single episode, but heck this one was fantastic.
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Kyelinn
post Apr 27 2010, 12:35 PM
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QUOTE (Goral @ Apr 27 2010, 09:32 AM) *
I have an advice to you Kyelinn. Don't reply to my posts in the future, we both would be happier that way. You're still denying that you were justifying Mustang's actions by making excuses "he was ordered to", "he was just doing his job", "he didn't enjoy it", "Roy had only just become a state alchemist and only just began working for the military" (read: he was young and stupid, but no you didn't write "young", lol).
You've also written an obvious lie that Mustang wasn't talking cheerfully with Hughes neither during the war or after. And when I've proved you wrong you didn't even comment on that and instead this post was deleted. Whatever.

Oh spare me. You're not worth the time or effort. So how about you just stop responding to me and let me be.


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deet-tastic
post Apr 27 2010, 03:17 PM
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Back on topic now..

Some of the camera angles did bother me a bit. The ways they chose to "film" some scenes. But they were still awesome.
This scene in particular was made of win. It was so fluid. I took like a million screenshots of it.
http://deetersthebrotherhoodfangirl.blogsp...ye-moments.html


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Kaori Ayanami
post Apr 27 2010, 03:38 PM
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Please... Let's take into account that Arakawa is Japanese, and so are her "target" readers, so to speak. They're mostly NOT Christian, not even Western-minded, so don't try to judge them by standards they don't even think about. And, no, I am not justifying him (or Arakawa). I'm explaining the situation.
QUOTE (Goral @ Apr 26 2010, 09:31 AM) *
Anyway, what difference does it make that he was in a military? It's better if thousands of people die then me, right? I can give a hand in a genocide if I'm being ordered to, right?
Then again, it's not about what it's right, but about what he believes it's right. And the society he lives in, of course. Genocide has happened in real world thanks to effed up thinkings, after all.
QUOTE
If Mustang changed after killing Envy it would mean Arakawa was being inconsistent and everything we knew about him before was gibberish.
It's not about killing Envy or not. It's about letting himself be driven by his hatred. So, if he accidentally killed Envy by stomping his boot on a little too hard, it wouldn't matter. XD
QUOTE
He wants to pay for what he had done and that's honourable of him but what I was trying to say was that killing Envy wouldn't change him since killing innocent people didn't change him.
We've been reading different mangas (and watching different animes) then. He was changed. Hell, even by the "His battlefield, once more" gaiden he was already scarred.

Yeah, he laughed with Hughes during the war. They were both goofing around to forget about the horrid thing they were doing. If you read/watched the entire scene you would have noticed that.
He did flirt normally after that... for information and cover-up. To sum it up, he may have recovered somewhat, but he never forgets about it.

Kyelinn, please, don't bring up the American troops topic. We are not all American. Thank you in advance.
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Vicious74
post Apr 27 2010, 03:58 PM
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QUOTE (Jealous Rogo @ Apr 27 2010, 05:18 PM) *
Okay actually sat doiwn and watched the ep and... wow.

While people may argue that they dislike this portion of the manga, I defy anyone to not at least give props to teh VA work. Envy's VA in particular knockedit out of the park. No one is gonna be able to match her work. The scene was fantastic, so fantastic I cannot put it into words. I actually felt SORRY for Envy in the end. The way they handled the scene was just... sad. You finally saw Envy for the pathetic wretch he is.

Also, if you watched the episode and you still can't understand why Envy killed himself... I think BONES made it even clearer than the manga.

Basically Envy was raised to despise humans, with his father and brother (Pride in particular) constantly going on about the pride of a Homunculus. So Envy's wish to be more human caused a conflict in himself, and caused him to act out against humans, in order to make sure no one ever suspected he actually wanted to be more like them. No wonder Envy wasn't very fond of Greed, his 'out' brother if you like. His line to Greed about Ling's body 'don't be surprised if your new form disgusts me' is so... over-compensatory


And ironic because Envy actually goes out of his way to look human and hates being seen in his beast homunculus form.

And this

"So Envy's wish to be more human caused a conflict in himself, and caused him to act out against humans, in order to make sure no one ever suspected he actually wanted to be more like them."

is very true and like you said stuff like that happens in real life a lot. For example, people who act like complete homophobics in order to try and supress their own homosexual urges and make sure no one ever suspects they exist.

And that is part of why Envy is one of Arakawa's best characters. He's a very believable character and we all come across people like him in our lives.
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Hagaren_4ever
post Apr 27 2010, 04:46 PM
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Goral, you bring up many valid points, and I respect your opinion. Now, let me see if I can explain this so that you're not QUITE so irritated with the episode.

Consider this: A soldier comes home from war and goes out to have dinner with his family for the first time in years. While they are out, a man starts hitting on his wife, so he takes his steak knife and plunges it into the younge man's chest.

Now, I realize the differences between the scene I just described and one that Roy experienced, bit I am just illustrating a simple point. There's killing for others, and then there's killing for yourself. Now, I don't believe in war, and I don't think any kind of murder is ever really very good. You see, just because someone is a war veteran, that doesn't mean they can go around setting people on fire using the excuse "I've killed before, how is this any different?"

But I do agree with you on some points. I didn't like Scar lecturing Roy, nor did I like Riza being ok with HER killing Envy, (since I always thought she was friends with Hughes too.) But one thing I do understand is why they didn't want Roy to go to downtown crazyville and just kill Envy 'cause he felt like it. Being a veteran doesn't excuse that, so yeah, in my opinion, I think it would change him. Do you get where I'm coming from?


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_Jelly
post Apr 27 2010, 10:57 PM
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You cant tell people not to respond to your own posts. Dont want people to react to it? Dont say anything. It's simple.

QUOTE (Hagaren_4ever @ Apr 28 2010, 09:46 AM) *
But I do agree with you on some points. I didn't like Scar lecturing Roy, nor did I like Riza being ok with HER killing Envy, (since I always thought she was friends with Hughes too.) But one thing I do understand is why they didn't want Roy to go to downtown crazyville and just kill Envy 'cause he felt like it. Being a veteran doesn't excuse that, so yeah, in my opinion, I think it would change him. Do you get where I'm coming from?


I think because Riza feels that she's already hit rock bottom, and can't fall much further. Either this or she would much rather take the burden of Envy's murder than see Roy fall so low. Also, yes there is a difference between killing for your own personal reasons and killing for someone else, I agree.

I also think killing for your own personal and greedy reasons (even if it's to avenge a friend) is a low act, wait no. That's what I've been taught and that's the message that is usually portrayed. When it comes to comics, movies, novels, any kind of media, it's not really about what would really happen but what should and what kind of ethical message you want to convey. If I were in Roy's situation, I probably would of set Envy on fire, and if anyone jumped in my way, burn them too. But that's not ethical and that's not what Arakawa thinks is ethical so that is in fact, not what happened.


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Claudius
post Apr 29 2010, 06:41 PM
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Y'know in my review of the manga chapter, I wrote that Envy's revelation (which was not my key argument; I questioned the development of the revelation in comparison to the previous facts. Evidently, I was so angered by Envy's 'Haha, you are ants!' rants that I didn't realize he was perhaps protesting too much) gave a new insight on his murder of Hughes. For all his bravado about killing that 'moron,' it must have bugged Envy very much that Hughes chose death rather than harm the person he loved- dying for a human affection the Homunculus wanted but could never have.
Not that I sympathize with either Envy. I thought both version's fates- neutralized of their power/OWNED by Alchemists or humans in flying machines/suicide or forced to kill the one bane & reason for living- appropriate. Then again, I don't think any punishment however big could ever repair the damage Envy did. Hughes is still dead... sad.gif )
I am no stranger to the 'Revenge is bad for Roy' discussion. I thought revenge was the source of Anime1Roy's ruin, as I described in my essay Roy's Defeat, published here a good ten months before the MangaRoy/Envy battle. I might as well add something new.
One has to realize the power of being Fuhrer. It is an absolute authority with no checks or balances or limits whatsoever. Thus, the temptation to abuse such power for one's desire is pretty strong. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Roy must possess a strong character, morality, and self-control to not only use such power wisely, but to actually dissolve it for the democracy, especially since this means removing the immunity from being convicted & executed for war crimes. One wonders if Roy can succeed against such a challenge. Caesar Augustus saw being Emperor as a short-phase plan that would lead to the restoration of the Republic. That didn't work out. Just because Roy reached age thirty with a nice post-war record of nobility doesn't guarantee he will be like that forever. Henry VIII of England also seemed like a noble king at age thirty. But later when things didn't go his way (getting no surviving sons from 1st wife, denied divorce by the Church), he violently made sure they did. By age forty-six, he had killed 1 wife, several friends (Thomas More), and a whole lot of his subjects.
So Roy has quite a challenge before him, so there can't be any room for immoral lapses before he becomes Fuhrer. Killing Envy basically means he's lost the challenge. If he can kill Envy by pure emotion and no restraint- because he feels like it- then as Fuhrer Roy might handle similar emotionally-trying situations the same way because he feels like it. And there is a big difference between doing things because he feels like it & doing the right thing.
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deet-tastic
post Apr 29 2010, 09:04 PM
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Excellent points bringing up Henry VIII and Caesar Augustus smile.gif

I've always found Scar's message to Roy interesting. "I wonder how a world led by a beast in human skin would end up"
Scar is referencing Wrath and Father right here I believe. Roy is wanting to change the country, but by stooping as low as killing for personal reasons, he would be just as horrible a ruler as Bradley.


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Billea_the_Turtl...
post Apr 30 2010, 08:52 PM
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Some thoughts:

-I gotta say, man, the art was really, I don't know, crisp. It all seemed so nice.
-Finally! We get to see the "burn my back" scene. Hold on a sec'... Did Riza just take off her shirt? Wow. Did not see that coming.
-Riza getting injured by Envy... That looked painful.
-The melodramatic music always gets me
-Envy... By the end of all this I was pitying him. And his Va did a wonderful job.
-They threw in flashbacks of Hughes, huh.
-Did they finally fire the FMA guy? Oh wait never mind...
-This episode seemed like a two parter to me for some reason
-And Alex gets some moments to show how much of a beast he is
-Oh hi Izumi
-They changed the ending? Not bad IMO

Overall this episode was excellent. I really like how Envy's death was portrayed. It all seemed really good.


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Bag of Magic Foo...
post Apr 30 2010, 09:27 PM
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QUOTE (theanimalmafia @ Apr 30 2010, 09:52 PM) *
They changed the ending? Not bad IMO

Oh that's right, they put the credits on top of the belated confrontation between Hohenheim and Father. I hate to try to guess what the American broadcast will have to chop up for that.
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penguintruth
post Apr 30 2010, 09:36 PM
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I rolled my eyes at how painfully dragged out the first three quarters of the episode was, but the Armstrong siblings in combat was definitely enjoyable, and it's good to see Izumi Curtis again. I'm also looking forward to Hohenheim versus Father.

If anyone's interested, my review is up on my blog.


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Mr. Deathy
post May 2 2010, 12:59 AM
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QUOTE (deet-tastic @ Apr 29 2010, 09:04 PM) *
Excellent points bringing up Henry VIII and Caesar Augustus smile.gif

I've always found Scar's message to Roy interesting. "I wonder how a world led by a beast in human skin would end up"
Scar is referencing Wrath and Father right here I believe. Roy is wanting to change the country, but by stooping as low as killing for personal reasons, he would be just as horrible a ruler as Bradley.


You know I've been wondering, did the whole scene remind anyone of the movie Se7en?

I mean I'll put this in spoilers and also link the scene I mean but yeah...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzAIZN9HuFg

Although in the movie the John Doe guy actually wants to be killed, there are a lot of other similarities. Detective Mills is obviously Roy, Somerset can be seen to be filling the roles of well...Scar, Hawkeye and Ed rolled into one I guess.

Either way both situations have someone filled with the emotion of Wrath, for a deceased loved one killed by the guy in front of them, faced with the option of letting loose and killing this person who represents Envy or holding back to stop themselves "becoming" Wrath.

When I thought of the movie scene I thought of how Roy would basically have become "Wrath" too, which I think symbolically, like you said too, means that he would've been just like Bradley.

I'm not sure if Arakawa has even seen the movie, but I do think the last part there was deliberate. The big difference to the scene of course though is that John Doe really wanted to be killed and was happy, where as Envy didn't want to die and was in complete distress.

I also wonder if Arakawa ever actually considered a plot point like Roy taking over as Wrath the Homunculus just like Ling became Greed. Obviously nothing remotely close to that happened in the story but it seems like she might've at least thought of the idea.
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Envy's Lady
post May 2 2010, 12:53 PM
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I've been trying to post here for a while. >_<

Anyway, I thought that Envy's final scenes were really touching. I liked him before I even knew he had an inferiority complex, although I always kind of suspected that maybe he did have one. I have one myself, so I like his character even more based on the fact that I can relate to how he feels about himself. sad.gif It's very sad though.

When Envy turned into Hughes' wife when he killed him....it was because he saw that picture of Hughes and his family. Envy got jealous of it. It made him feel lonely. So he wanted to ruin it so to speak.

A lot of other people in here have already said stuff that I also agree with.

I think the fact that the author had Envy kill himself in the end was the best way to go since it would have felt wrong for anyone to kill him when he was in that state really.


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Michiyo-
post Jul 16 2011, 02:30 PM
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Please add FMA:B English dubbed episode 54 (on CN on Adult Swim) talk-back/discussions here. smile.gif

FMA:B will air 1:00 AM - 1: 30 AM and 5:00 AM - 5:30 AM eastern time. smile.gif


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