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Discussions On Designs On Truth Gate/door For Ed, Al, And Others (spoilers Alert ^^), Kabbalah (The Nature Of Truth, The Nature Of Father) On The Gate?
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Katya Martin
post Feb 25 2010, 07:40 PM
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OSH----

Instead of just leaving a shocked exclamation, I shall also wonder if any of the others saw the eclipse in their Gate, "off-screen."

Also. Guesses for what Roy saw at the Gate? The fact that we haven't found out yet makes me think it'll be important.


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deet-tastic
post May 8 2010, 11:24 PM
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I'm starting to wonder if we'll ever see Roy's gate


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post Aug 7 2010, 10:12 PM
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QUOTE (vionasoancY @ Jan 25 2010, 08:19 AM) *
Ive noticed that the symbols on the Gate looks a lot like jewish "tree of life" with its 10 names for God and 10 sephiroths the names are actually written on the gate. Has anyone noticed that and why do you think it is only on Eds Gate but not on Als?



the writtings on al's door are not the 10 names of God, they are the 10 Sfirot "Emanations" and they are kinda out of order from what i can see in one of the picstures from the manga.
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bulmabriefs144
post Aug 7 2010, 11:28 PM
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QUOTE
I don't understand much about Kabbalah, but I found some links and images I thought I might share. Might be partially offtopic, but it was already being discussed in this thread, so...

First, on Ed's Doors there's Robert Fludd's Sephirothic Tree, which indeed has a lot to do with Kabbalah (but that's clear if you've read the fisrt mesage in this thread, of course). Anyway, I found some information about it here.

The picture on Al's doors is more difficult to find information about. It's obviously based on an illustration that can be found here (look at the one numbered "A046"). That's the only place I've found a picture of it, and it's quite small. (Maybe if someone ordered the print...). Also, the only information about the illustration is that...


They are both featured in this gallery, the other one is A268.





Okay, here's my take on this (and you know I could be wrong). The reason Ed ended up in between doors (in the other FMA anime, it was one side or the other of the door), is because he used alchemy in a way different from its normal purpose. This is not to say "misused" (actually, it's probably a more true to the version of alchemy that it alters the self rather than changing others), but that it was sort of a form of "hacking" in that it used him as a gate to send himself. So as a result of this, he ended up between the gates.

Let's look at the symbology, shall we? For the first, we have the weird twisted up flower root. It says stuff like "fermentum" and "putrefactum" a reference to the ability of matter to decay, or to by decay change into new life (like compost). At the bottom, we have corpus & spiritus, body and spirit. Here's the interesting part though, if you look closely, doesn't this diagram remind you of something? How about the vein system of the human body? It starts at the brain (the flower, and crosses over the body, something which happens with our impulses, which is why right brain ppl are left handed). So this is a diagram of the Tree of Man.

Now, we have on the other side, what is sometimes called the Tree of Life, but is here called the tree of the sephiroth. That is, this is a diagram of the principalities of the heavens, and the body and Names of God.

Ed just got stuck between gates, meaning he left one to enter another. Since he got sucked into the Sepiroth tree, this implies the world he came from was a world created by man, a false gate. The purpose behind this gate therefore, is to siphon out alchemic power for a personal universe. Likewise, the Sephiroth gate is a world created by God, the real world (as it would be if we lived in his world).

The whole equivalent exchange, as is hinted in the other series, is in fact a false trade, lending power to the Door of "Truth." In the other series, when Ed admits he saw the Truth at that door, I remember him getting slapped around and his sensei says "you really think that was the truth?"

(Stupid slow wireless, I'm not sure if it sent)
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Verokomo
post Feb 17 2011, 03:17 PM
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A lot of great discussions on here. This is a very interesting subject. Thanks for sharing all this. I'm about in the middle of the anime right now and couldn't be more into it. smile.gif

Before starting FMA i was really interested in dreams and mythology and wanted to learn about the subject, which led me to read a book called 'The Hero with a thousand faces' by Joseph Campbell. This book is about the journey of the archetypal hero found in world mythologies. Myths from around the world all share a fundamental structure that he calls 'monomyth'. I was really exited to see that FMA followed this idea.

Seeing the door i immediately thought of the crossing of the threshold. This gate represents the unknown or the unconscious. It holds the knowledge and wisdom to achieve a goal. The threshold guardian or "gatekeeper" must test the hero’s mettle for competency before he may enter the realm. Gatekeepers are usually terrifying creatures such as Cerberus (the three-headed dog of the Underworld), Pan, ogres, and shape-shifters of classical mythology.
To me the symbols on the gate seemed to represents the different levels of consciousness. Much like the kundalini piercing through the chakras in Hindu or Buddhist symbolism .The bottom being the different elements of the material world merging into one creating the body, going up through the different levels. The lower ones representing the more 'animal' instincts (thats were fear, lust, jealousy and all the rest comes in), going up to the 'crown' or 'sun' representing 'enlightenment' or 'pure consciousness' (the one truth) which transcends the material body.
In context with the Hero's Journey this would be the 'Ultimate boon' which is the achievement of the goal of the quest. In many myths the boon is something transcendent like the elixir of life itself, or a plant that supplies immortality, or the holy grail. For FMA, well, im gonna have to wait and see. smile.gif

Seeing now that it could be a Kabbalah symbol it changes a bit my initial thoughts but it still makes a lot of sense to me since the same ideas are present in it.

Here's a video of Joseph Campbell for you. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zzj8aE1KPPQ...;feature=relmfu


Can't wait to watch the next episode! smile.gif
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post Feb 17 2011, 04:07 PM
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Hello, Verokomo! A huge welcome to the forum! If you need any help, feel free to ask!

You've certainly added some great thoughts to the discussion and they're very interesting points indeed. I've never thought of possible Hindu influences in the past when it came to the Gates of Truth, but it definitely seems to fit. (I'm glad to hear you're enjoying the series, by the way! wink.gif )


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Turdaewen
post Feb 19 2011, 09:16 PM
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QUOTE (Verokomo @ Feb 17 2011, 07:17 PM) *
A lot of great discussions on here. This is a very interesting subject. Thanks for sharing all this. I'm about in the middle of the anime right now and couldn't be more into it. smile.gif

Before starting FMA i was really interested in dreams and mythology and wanted to learn about the subject, which led me to read a book called 'The Hero with a thousand faces' by Joseph Campbell. This book is about the journey of the archetypal hero found in world mythologies. Myths from around the world all share a fundamental structure that he calls 'monomyth'. I was really exited to see that FMA followed this idea.

Seeing the door i immediately thought of the crossing of the threshold. This gate represents the unknown or the unconscious. It holds the knowledge and wisdom to achieve a goal. The threshold guardian or "gatekeeper" must test the hero’s mettle for competency before he may enter the realm. Gatekeepers are usually terrifying creatures such as Cerberus (the three-headed dog of the Underworld), Pan, ogres, and shape-shifters of classical mythology.
To me the symbols on the gate seemed to represents the different levels of consciousness. Much like the kundalini piercing through the chakras in Hindu or Buddhist symbolism .The bottom being the different elements of the material world merging into one creating the body, going up through the different levels. The lower ones representing the more 'animal' instincts (thats were fear, lust, jealousy and all the rest comes in), going up to the 'crown' or 'sun' representing 'enlightenment' or 'pure consciousness' (the one truth) which transcends the material body.
In context with the Hero's Journey this would be the 'Ultimate boon' which is the achievement of the goal of the quest. In many myths the boon is something transcendent like the elixir of life itself, or a plant that supplies immortality, or the holy grail. For FMA, well, im gonna have to wait and see. smile.gif

Seeing now that it could be a Kabbalah symbol it changes a bit my initial thoughts but it still makes a lot of sense to me since the same ideas are present in it.

Here's a video of Joseph Campbell for you. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zzj8aE1KPPQ...;feature=relmfu


Can't wait to watch the next episode! smile.gif

Hey!! It's great to see someone is acquainted to Joseph Campbell!! ^^ That's really something XD.

If you wish to keep studying about Symbology and Mythology, I suggest you read some books by Mircea Eliade. He's also quite interesting as Campbell, but, maybe, a little more complex to understand. I really do like Campbell but, at the same time, I think he gets slightly tied up to a very psychoanalytic sort of view which can be restricting at times.
In that sense, Eliade is more interesting since he doesn't judge or try to come up with "rational interpretations". He tries to be more descriptive...
But the book "Hero with a thousand faces" is actually quite famous: sagas like "Star Wars" and The Lion King use it as a basis. (which is a good indication that Arakawa may have heard of it or maybe even read it, a big Star Wars fan as she is) There's a documentary by Campbell named "Masks of God" (named after a quadrology of books by the same name, which are also a good reading suggestion, though slightly heavier) that was recorded at the Skywalker Ranch, and Campbell and George Lucas were good friends.

Anyways, Mircea Eliade actually has an essay on Alchemy called "Blacksmiths and Alchemists", where he illustrates the symbolic process of Alchemy. Very enlightening to understand FMA, impressively enough. lol


And that idea you have put about the gate and its meaning, I think you're quite right. ^^ In many literature and myths, you have the "Dragon", which is a very common representation of the Guardian, guarding the Door, the passage between a state of consciousness to another. In FMA, we have the structure of the Truth "taking away" something from the Alchemist, which will, ultimately, be the key element to make them become more aware of themselves, of their faults and virtues and overcome a certain view of the world (or a state of consciousness).

**And, since you haven't read all of it, I'll put this as spoiler, so you can read it as you get to the end**
Their "ultimate boon" is the "heart of steel" and, even if they're not aware of that goal themselves, that is really all they're after: the means to be the "better person" they all want to be.


But the fact that Ed's gate's image is the Ein Sof/Tree of Life (and not some Hindu image) doesn't change much this very concept, since the Tree itself represents the same thing as the chakras, only in a "cosmical level": it represents the process of the manifestation of life and "the world" (and, in other words, the Truth). It's just another culture's way of stating the same thing.


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"By the power of truth I, while living, have conquered the universe"
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Verokomo
post Feb 24 2011, 01:27 PM
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QUOTE (Turdaewen @ Feb 19 2011, 11:16 PM) *
Hey!! It's great to see someone is acquainted to Joseph Campbell!! ^^ That's really something XD.

If you wish to keep studying about Symbology and Mythology, I suggest you read some books by Mircea Eliade. He's also quite interesting as Campbell, but, maybe, a little more complex to understand. I really do like Campbell but, at the same time, I think he gets slightly tied up to a very psychoanalytic sort of view which can be restricting at times.
In that sense, Eliade is more interesting since he doesn't judge or try to come up with "rational interpretations". He tries to be more descriptive...
But the book "Hero with a thousand faces" is actually quite famous: sagas like "Star Wars" and The Lion King use it as a basis. (which is a good indication that Arakawa may have heard of it or maybe even read it, a big Star Wars fan as she is) There's a documentary by Campbell named "Masks of God" (named after a quadrology of books by the same name, which are also a good reading suggestion, though slightly heavier) that was recorded at the Skywalker Ranch, and Campbell and George Lucas were good friends.

Anyways, Mircea Eliade actually has an essay on Alchemy called "Blacksmiths and Alchemists", where he illustrates the symbolic process of Alchemy. Very enlightening to understand FMA, impressively enough. lol


And that idea you have put about the gate and its meaning, I think you're quite right. ^^ In many literature and myths, you have the "Dragon", which is a very common representation of the Guardian, guarding the Door, the passage between a state of consciousness to another. In FMA, we have the structure of the Truth "taking away" something from the Alchemist, which will, ultimately, be the key element to make them become more aware of themselves, of their faults and virtues and overcome a certain view of the world (or a state of consciousness).

**And, since you haven't read all of it, I'll put this as spoiler, so you can read it as you get to the end**
Their "ultimate boon" is the "heart of steel" and, even if they're not aware of that goal themselves, that is really all they're after: the means to be the "better person" they all want to be.


But the fact that Ed's gate's image is the Ein Sof/Tree of Life (and not some Hindu image) doesn't change much this very concept, since the Tree itself represents the same thing as the chakras, only in a "cosmical level": it represents the process of the manifestation of life and "the world" (and, in other words, the Truth). It's just another culture's way of stating the same thing.



Hi Turdaewen!

I'm very happy to see that you are acquainted to Campbell as well. smile.gif The chance to talk to someone about these subjects doesn't happen very often I must say. It' s always nice to be able to share and connect.

I had never heard of Mircea Eliade before. I will definitely try to put my hands on his books. I do understand what you mean by Campbell's psychoanalytic view of things. You can see that Carl Jung had a big influence on him. I do like his way of explaining things but i would certainly like to see another ones take on this. 'Blacksmiths and Alchemists' sounds VERY interesting. Watching FMA really made me want to learn more about alchemy and now i know what to start with. ^ ^ Thanks a lot for the recommendation!

I did hear about the "Masks of God" documentary and really wanted to watch it but wasn't able to find it. I'll have to search a bit more. I saw his course called 'Transformation of Myth through time' and thought it was incredibly informative and enlightening. I'm hoping to watch and read the most i can from him i have to say. It's to wonder why we don't teach this in schools. It tells so much about humanity.

I didn't know Arakawa was a Star Wars Fan. Now it makes sense. ^ ^ I was also thinking that she must have been influenced by Campbell... or at least by the same ideas that influenced him. It's hard not to be inspired by this, even unconsciously.

Ok ok.. the urge was stronger than myself... I read your spoiler!! I couldn't help it!! But to be honest, it was pretty much the conclusion i had in mind already. In the end thats the best anyone of us can hope to strive for isn't it. There journey is universal. smile.gif


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Turdaewen
post Mar 2 2011, 06:05 AM
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QUOTE (Verokomo @ Feb 24 2011, 05:27 PM) *
Hi Turdaewen!

I'm very happy to see that you are acquainted to Campbell as well. smile.gif The chance to talk to someone about these subjects doesn't happen very often I must say. It' s always nice to be able to share and connect.

I had never heard of Mircea Eliade before. I will definitely try to put my hands on his books. I do understand what you mean by Campbell's psychoanalytic view of things. You can see that Carl Jung had a big influence on him. I do like his way of explaining things but i would certainly like to see another ones take on this. 'Blacksmiths and Alchemists' sounds VERY interesting. Watching FMA really made me want to learn more about alchemy and now i know what to start with. ^ ^ Thanks a lot for the recommendation!

I did hear about the "Masks of God" documentary and really wanted to watch it but wasn't able to find it. I'll have to search a bit more. I saw his course called 'Transformation of Myth through time' and thought it was incredibly informative and enlightening. I'm hoping to watch and read the most i can from him i have to say. It's to wonder why we don't teach this in schools. It tells so much about humanity.

I didn't know Arakawa was a Star Wars Fan. Now it makes sense. ^ ^ I was also thinking that she must have been influenced by Campbell... or at least by the same ideas that influenced him. It's hard not to be inspired by this, even unconsciously.

Ok ok.. the urge was stronger than myself... I read your spoiler!! I couldn't help it!! But to be honest, it was pretty much the conclusion i had in mind already. In the end thats the best anyone of us can hope to strive for isn't it. There journey is universal. smile.gif


We have to remember that Campbell lived and wrote these books in the first half of the 20th Century and a lot has been improved in terms of phychology since then. Nothing against Jung, obviously, he was brilliant, but still, there're a lot more to be said about it. And furthermore, the "psychology" of it is only a part of the interpretation process and the symbol is a lot more than "psyche".

This book by Eliade is quite hard to reach, cause it's actually a transcript from a course he once gave about the semiotics of these orders. I've only acquired it in Portuguese and, even then, it's a EXTREMELY rare book. (it doesn't sell in bookstores anymore and, in old book stores, IF you find it, it's never less than 100 bucks). I've never seen it in English (not even a e-book), but I do have the e-book in Portuguese.
I'm very sad to say that most good material that I have about symbology and Alchemy is in Portuguese/Spanish (unfortunately, it seems as if the English natives are not that very interested in such subjects), although most Eliade's books was written in English, originally.

The documentary "Masks of God" is sold in DVD. In fact, my bf gave the DVD as a xmas present last year. lol So, I believe it won't be hard finding it.

These subjects are not taught in school simply because: very few people care about it.
It's not scientific (in terms of "it doesn't follow the 'rules' of scientific inquiry") and, according to most, it's just not 'useful'. "knowing yourself" doesn't make a man very productive to the market. For example: in the early 20th century, Einstein has shown an entire different approach to physics... and, still today, we're only taught at school to use the Newtonian theory. Again, not to say Newton "was wrong" (in fact, Newton is considered to have been an Alchemist, mind me), but the Academy has a tendency to disregard whatever inquiries don't fit their interests (meaning economic profit and social/academic prestige of their own works). So much so, they simply ignore those researches that contradict themselves or that would demand them to review what they are doing and their "laws".
But, of course, that doesn't happen always, but it's very hard to break through into Academics if you don't "join their club".

One of the only fields that I've seen to talk about these things and, even such, in a very skeptical way is Antropology. They only see that as "cultural influences and moral teachings". And people still wonder why today's world is like this. lol


About the spoiler, I put it up just for protection, cause, let's face it, it's pretty intuitive to think that's the meaning. I had that in my head for years before the ending was revealed and it was rather a confirmation of it than a discovery. ^_~


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Verokomo
post Mar 21 2011, 01:43 PM
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QUOTE (Turdaewen @ Mar 2 2011, 08:05 AM) *
This book by Eliade is quite hard to reach, cause it's actually a transcript from a course he once gave about the semiotics of these orders. I've only acquired it in Portuguese and, even then, it's a EXTREMELY rare book. (it doesn't sell in bookstores anymore and, in old book stores, IF you find it, it's never less than 100 bucks). I've never seen it in English (not even a e-book), but I do have the e-book in Portuguese.
I'm very sad to say that most good material that I have about symbology and Alchemy is in Portuguese/Spanish (unfortunately, it seems as if the English natives are not that very interested in such subjects), although most Eliade's books was written in English, originally.

Hello again!
You were right about the Eliade's book. I wasn't able to find it anywhere. I finally decided to buy another one by Marie-Louise Von Franz called 'Alchemy: An Introduction to the Symbolism and the Psychology'. She was one of Jung's student and collaborator (which i only found out after buying it). She's my discovery of the month. ;P I'm only in the middle of the second lecture but it already thought me a lot. Very insightful book... if anyones interested. ^ ^

QUOTE (Turdaewen @ Mar 2 2011, 08:05 AM) *
About the spoiler, I put it up just for protection, cause, let's face it, it's pretty intuitive to think that's the meaning. I had that in my head for years before the ending was revealed and it was rather a confirmation of it than a discovery. ^_~

I understand. smile.gif I have that same tendency when watching anime, especially FMA. ... Seeing meaning and connections everywhere. O__o



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post Mar 22 2011, 02:56 PM
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QUOTE (Verokomo @ Mar 21 2011, 05:43 PM) *
QUOTE (Turdaewen @ Mar 2 2011, 08:05 AM) *
This book by Eliade is quite hard to reach, cause it's actually a transcript from a course he once gave about the semiotics of these orders. I've only acquired it in Portuguese and, even then, it's a EXTREMELY rare book. (it doesn't sell in bookstores anymore and, in old book stores, IF you find it, it's never less than 100 bucks). I've never seen it in English (not even a e-book), but I do have the e-book in Portuguese.
I'm very sad to say that most good material that I have about symbology and Alchemy is in Portuguese/Spanish (unfortunately, it seems as if the English natives are not that very interested in such subjects), although most Eliade's books was written in English, originally.

Hello again!
You were right about the Eliade's book. I wasn't able to find it anywhere. I finally decided to buy another one by Marie-Louise Von Franz called 'Alchemy: An Introduction to the Symbolism and the Psychology'. She was one of Jung's student and collaborator (which i only found out after buying it). She's my discovery of the month. ;P I'm only in the middle of the second lecture but it already thought me a lot. Very insightful book... if anyones interested. ^ ^

Told you so. lol

I've never heard of Marie-Louise Von Franz... I think it's very interesting to see what the Jung students and collaborators talk about alchemy, but still it is merely a psychological way of looking into it, which is very enriching but also a little limitating. But it's a good acquisition either way. XD

The good thing about authors like Eliade and Campbell is the fact that they're not academic of some field looking into symbology to try and see what can be related to their studies, but they are interested in symbology, period. So, it's not some "applied studies" but a study in and for itself.


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post Jan 15 2012, 06:30 AM
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QUOTE (chaton @ May 21 2009, 01:57 AM) *
QUOTE (mazam @ May 20 2009, 10:45 PM) *
Thanks for all this. I always knew a bit about kabbalah and a bit on relating it to FMA, but this is in far greater detail. The bit with Father's form and shadow is very interesting. I'm going to digest this for a bit. smile.gif


It's great to find someone who knows a bit about Kabbalah. Does my interpretation make sense with what you know about Kabbalah? I only even learned Kabbalah existed from looking up words on the Door of Truth- so, it might be good to hear from someone who had knowledge of Kabbalah outside of what they found out from this (unless you came across it the same way).

======================================================

Something I did not mention in my first post: "Eheih Pater," which is clearly visible at the top of the door means "I am Father".

"Eheih" is a variation of "Eheyeh," which is a way of saying "I am" in Hebrew.

"Pater," on the other hand, is the Latin word for "Father," and is used as a prefix in words like "paternal" or "patriarch."

"Corona," appearing in the same circle and discussed in my first post, is also Latin.

So Arakawa is mixing at least 2 languages for this: she is sometimes also using less common variations on spelling or altering words slightly so they are different but still recognizable. As far as I can tell, all the words (and symbols) in this manga actually mean something, though I haven't looked up that many.




sorry to disappoint you, but "eheye" in hebrew means "I will be".
if u mean "I am" then u need to say "ani" (I is "ani", and if u need to use "am" u say it with the.. umm.. the action u're doing XD)

ETA:
QUOTE (ninryu @ May 31 2009, 09:09 AM) *
first thing yehovah is god's real name and the god in hebrow it's elohim, second thing nezzahh is forever, gvurah is bravery and malchut is kingship and i know what i'm talking about couse i'm jewish and know hebrow better than english.


it's funny to see an anime with hebrew and jewish things XD
ve-ani gam yodaat ivrit XDDD rolleyes.gif
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