HAGANE NO RENKINJUTSUSHI
HAGANE NO RENKINJUTSUSHI
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Chapter 52 "Regular" Discussion Thread For First Time Readers (and Others), No future chapter spoilers here, please. :)
Jellybean
post Oct 20 2005, 09:20 PM
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Oh yeah, I forgot about that guy! I believe his name was Bido. I'll bet he will show up again.
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Phyco girl
post Oct 21 2005, 08:16 PM
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QUOTE(Antimony @ Oct 18 2005, 11:55 AM) [snapback]301225[/snapback]

QUOTE
Is it just me or does "father" looks suspiciously like Honehiem


That subject is being discussed already in this thread. http://www.fullmetal-alchemist.com/forums/...?showtopic=7162


happy.gif You may have wanted keep the spoiler tags on there huh.gif ....

It was just I finished the chapter and didn't see that particular thread but gomen ^^".
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animefangirl
post Oct 21 2005, 08:58 PM
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theyll make it back safely (i hope)


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Tyoria
post Oct 25 2005, 03:57 PM
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Sorry about the hiatus, it's been a hectic week. Huh, sure hope people are still reading this thread.

I did sorta forget about Kimblee. It's interesting that the military brass would say he doesn't have the 'nerve' to open the doors. What kind of 'nerve' are they talking about, exactly? I wonder how manga-Kimblee will look compared to his anime counterpart... but I wouldn't be surprised if he turned out to be a rather different kind of crazy this time around.

As for the Envy-as-chimera idea... well, he's obviously not one the way Nina or Greed's gang members were. It's just I wondered whether it might be possible to expand the use of the word a bit. After all, "chimera" means specifically the mythical monster which is part lion, part goat, and part serpent, but it is frequently used simply to refer to a hybrid creature. So might it be possible to consider Envy both chimera and homunculus? Well it's really just semantics, by some standards we might consider ALL the homunculi 'chimeras' since many people died together to create the PS which is their nucleus... but Envy in PARTICULAR seems to be hitting on that theme, which makes me curious.

Here's a (weak) theory: The assumption is that the people inside Envy are the ones who went in to making his/her/its/their Philosopher's Stone, but we don't have proof positive of that. It's possible that the people that went into Envy's Philosopher's Stone are just plain dead and the people inside came from somewhere else. So say that "Father," when he created Envy, did so by binding a bunch of people who were still alive around an already existing Philosopher's Stone... which of course was made out of people who were already dead. Thus, he created a sort of "ultimate chimera" which had the same quasi-immortal properties as the homunculi. Instead of being bound to one another they were all bound to the Philosopher's Stone which formed the nucleus. Since no particular component human has dominance, the true form is somewhat amorphous, and Envy can shapeshift. Yet the true form is also a completely hideous perversion of humanity and the shapeshifting is ultimately illusory, as Envy can change his form but not his mass, so he carries a literal "weight" with him wherever he goes. Hence, "monster Envy."

QUOTE
Well, must I say I wasn't blaming/looking down on Ling at all. It's completely understandable that, in order to survive, Ling kills the "people", knowing that Envy is using (I know he/she/it tongue.gif is) to trick them both.


Oh sorry, I phrased that badly. It just seemed that the scenario you proposed -- that Ling is aware of the fact that there are people inside of the monster, while simultaneously being conscious that he and Ed are fighting for their lives and cannot afford to show mercy to those that are doomed anyway -- seemed to be casting Ling in more or less the best light possible, so I just wanted to say that I wasn't sure if that was true but it's not because I dislike Ling, just the opposite really. I just haven't seen any real conclusive evidence that Ling has "powers" like Ran Fan or Mei, and he himself says he doesn't know anything about alchemy. So I don't know if he "knows" what's going on inside of Envy any more than we the viewer do... his "knowledge" may consist solely of knowing that Envy is a sneaky, unrepentant murderer who is also a hideous being that calls out in multiple voices, a being that is currently is TRYING TO KILL THEM. Hence for all intents and purposes, Envy is a monster, end of story. Ling is thus a lot more focused on staying alive than on holding the moral high ground.

QUOTE
As for the "better dead than suffering" part, let's just say that in "real life" I'm completely opposed to death, death penalty and the likes. I agree on euthanasia tho' if and only if the person is 100% conscious and aware and wants it, if s/he's really suffering and there's no mid, long term solution. But that's off-topic, just excusing myself for saying so. I said it, tho', because it's a common line of thought in this kind of dramatic stories (I'm reading Dracula right now, and there's a part where the main character thinks so: "she's better dead" etc.), and I think it's the one Ling is following, again, to keep a clear conscience. The fact some of the Envy-people are asking to be saved (I probably would be one of those, was I in that situation. Don't even wanna think about it... sad.gif) doesn't mean they can... and then this logic (kind of) applies -> "better dead than uselessly suffering anymore". Those are intended to be sad/tragic characters indeed, just like Nina. sad.gif


I'm not entirely sure Ling is aware of the situation to the point that he needs to engage in pre-emptive rationalization to make himself feel better. If he is... eh, I have no idea, I could understand the logic behind the rationalization but I don't necessarily agree with it. My stance on that whole subject IRL is close to yours, and I wasn't particularly thrilled with Scar for killing Nina in the first place, because it wasn't obvious to me at the time that just because they didn't know how to change her back at the moment, that they would NEVER be able to help her. But we don't have all the facts yet on what's going on with those people, so...

Though I think the issue of the collateral damage from killing Envy might be somewhat academic anyway, given that a) the odds of being able to successfully kill that thing, at least under the current circumstances, are not looking spectacularly good at the moment, what with both Ed and Ling being in such poor fighting shape, BUT cool.gif the odds of Envy agreeing to cooperate with Ed are probably not all that bad, what with his alternative being slow death by wasting away and all. I know I'm biased, but Envy has nothing to lose by agreeing and he does have a certain vested interest in saving his own neck too, so my money's on him agreeing to an alliance even if he DOES resort to backstabbery the minute they're all outside. Nobody's dying just yet, hopefully.


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Sensenic
post Oct 27 2005, 03:50 AM
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Well, first things first: W ohmy.gif W! That was quite the essay!
QUOTE(Tyoria @ Oct 26 2005, 12:57 AM) [snapback]304278[/snapback]

Sorry about the hiatus, it's been a hectic week. Huh, sure hope people are still reading this thread.

I did sorta forget about Kimblee. It's interesting that the military brass would say he doesn't have the 'nerve' to open the doors. What kind of 'nerve' are they talking about, exactly? I wonder how manga-Kimblee will look compared to his anime counterpart... but I wouldn't be surprised if he turned out to be a rather different kind of crazy this time around.

I guess they mean that either he'd pee in his pants when suggested to do it or, rather, that he wouldn't be able to come back, like poor Al...
QUOTE(Tyoria @ Oct 26 2005, 12:57 AM) [snapback]304278[/snapback]

<insert Envy-chimera theory here, took it out to make the post shorter> happy.gifU

Nice one! Could be, yeah. If all hommunculi have a specific reason to be (just like Gluttony was made to be an access to the doors of Truth -failed- and Wrath -probably- to rule Amestris without arising suspicions within the people and the military lower tiers)., This could be Envy's... a "perfect" chimera.
QUOTE(Tyoria @ Oct 26 2005, 12:57 AM) [snapback]304278[/snapback]

QUOTE
Well, must I say I wasn't blaming/looking down on Ling at all. It's completely understandable that, in order to survive, Ling kills the "people", knowing that Envy is using (I know he/she/it tongue.gif is) to trick them both.


Oh sorry, I phrased that badly. It just seemed that the scenario you proposed -- that Ling is aware of the fact that there are people inside of the monster, while simultaneously being conscious that he and Ed are fighting for their lives and cannot afford to show mercy to those that are doomed anyway -- seemed to be casting Ling in more or less the best light possible, so I just wanted to say that I wasn't sure if that was true but it's not because I dislike Ling, just the opposite really. I just haven't seen any real conclusive evidence that Ling has "powers" like Ran Fan or Mei, and he himself says he doesn't know anything about alchemy.

Oh, on that point there, Ling does detect 'ki'. All Xings do, so far, even Xiao Mei laugh.gif
Proof:
1- (This one I'm not sure, but I seem to recall) Back at their first appearance in Rush Valley, Fu asks Ling if he noticed about the armor... (without no human being inside), and Ling says he did.
2- Soon afterwards, he "detects sth wrong" with the country, just like Mei Chang did.
3- He said to Ed and Al that "they" (refering to Ran fan and himself) could detect hommunculi, when the brothers were plotting the "Scar-fishing" wink.gif
4- Right at the instant Gluttony comes out, Ling jumps saying "deta!" -> "(they) came out!"

Right, maybe they're not conclusive, conclusive... but the sum of them all, makes it quite clear. Me thinks. And, AFAIK, knowledge of Alchemy has nothing to do with it (at least, directly).
QUOTE(Tyoria @ Oct 26 2005, 12:57 AM) [snapback]304278[/snapback]
So I don't know if he "knows" what's going on inside of Envy any more than we the viewer do... his "knowledge" may consist solely of knowing that Envy is a sneaky, unrepentant murderer who is also a hideous being that calls out in multiple voices, a being that is currently is TRYING TO KILL THEM. Hence for all intents and purposes, Envy is a monster, end of story. Ling is thus a lot more focused on staying alive than on holding the moral high ground.

Well, I didn't mean Ling's being all "hmmm... let's see... Is it good to kill these "things" that come out from Envy? Let us analyze it from different points of view and draw a conclusion. Part 1: ...", of course.

Just that, since it's a rather usual scene: someone repeating n times "it's a monster/it's evil/it's the devil/etc" in order to brush aside the moral doubts that may arise naturally, in order to survive or to do what the character believes to be "the good/right action", I assumed Ling was doing the same here.

Rather OT advice/random advertisement: Read Naoki Urasawa's Monster, one of the best mangas out there, IMHO, and it brings out this question lots of times. wink.gif
QUOTE(Tyoria @ Oct 26 2005, 12:57 AM) [snapback]304278[/snapback]

QUOTE
As for the "better dead than suffering" part, let's just say that in "real life" I'm completely opposed to death, death penalty and the likes. I agree on euthanasia tho' if and only if the person is 100% conscious and aware and wants it, if s/he's really suffering and there's no mid, long term solution. But that's off-topic, just excusing myself for saying so. I said it, tho', because it's a common line of thought in this kind of dramatic stories (I'm reading Dracula right now, and there's a part where the main character thinks so: "she's better dead" etc.), and I think it's the one Ling is following, again, to keep a clear conscience. The fact some of the Envy-people are asking to be saved (I probably would be one of those, was I in that situation. Don't even wanna think about it... sad.gif) doesn't mean they can... and then this logic (kind of) applies -> "better dead than uselessly suffering anymore". Those are intended to be sad/tragic characters indeed, just like Nina. sad.gif


I'm not entirely sure Ling is aware of the situation to the point that he needs to engage in pre-emptive rationalization to make himself feel better. If he is... eh, I have no idea, I could understand the logic behind the rationalization but I don't necessarily agree with it. My stance on that whole subject IRL is close to yours, and I wasn't particularly thrilled with Scar for killing Nina in the first place, because it wasn't obvious to me at the time that just because they didn't know how to change her back at the moment, that they would NEVER be able to help her. But we don't have all the facts yet on what's going on with those people, so...

Well, as I said, I don't agree with it either, and I said I'd be part of the "begging for my life" group if I were one of those... but that doesn't change the fact that it is a usual line of thought.

I didn't want neither Nina nor Hughes to die, but it was for the plot's sake...
QUOTE(Tyoria @ Oct 26 2005, 12:57 AM) [snapback]304278[/snapback]

Though I think the issue of the collateral damage from killing Envy might be somewhat academic anyway, given that a) the odds of being able to successfully kill that thing, at least under the current circumstances, are not looking spectacularly good at the moment, what with both Ed and Ling being in such poor fighting shape, BUT cool.gif the odds of Envy agreeing to cooperate with Ed are probably not all that bad, what with his alternative being slow death by wasting away and all. I know I'm biased, but Envy has nothing to lose by agreeing and he does have a certain vested interest in saving his own neck too, so my money's on him agreeing to an alliance even if he DOES resort to backstabbery the minute they're all outside. Nobody's dying just yet, hopefully.

I'm afraid I don't understand your point here. Yeah, you're pointing the fact that they're most probably going to cooperate to get out of there with none of them dying -yet-... but that's quite obvious, IMO.
Wait, if you mean that the "analyzing the collateral consequencies of killing Envy by Ling" is rather futile... well, I never meant Ling was analyzing anything... I just mentioned that those 2 points:
- Kill them cuz it is a monster and it's gonna kill you.
and
- They're better dead than suffering this much.
were probably the logic Ling was following, in his desperation... Not that he never stopped to analyze it (nor he had the time to).

Plus, come to think of it, Ed did analyze, that's why he stopped and was almost killed first and eaten (again laugh.gif) later. So, when Ed expressed his ethical doubts (They're real people! is it OK to kill them? couldn't we save them somehow?) Ling showed that he was following that logic while, to me, it showed that he was having moral issues too, as he repeated it: "It's a monster, a monster! It's gonna kill you if you don't do anything!". And at that time they knew naught about the cooperative possibilty of getting out, so Ling couldn't know... the fact that they know now ain't gonna change the past, if you see what I mean, that's why I said I didn't see your point in your last statement.

Did I make my point or did I worsen things? sleep.gif


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Tyoria
post Nov 6 2005, 04:04 AM
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Oh, god, I am SO sorry for this delay! Life has been kicking my ass lately. At this rate I will be lucky to get one more post in before chapter 53, and after that I will have a guest staying for two weeks and have even LESS time.

QUOTE
I guess they mean that either he'd pee in his pants when suggested to do it or, rather, that he wouldn't be able to come back, like poor Al...


I lean towards the former...

QUOTE
Nice one! Could be, yeah. If all hommunculi have a specific reason to be (just like Gluttony was made to be an access to the doors of Truth -failed- and Wrath -probably- to rule Amestris without arising suspicions within the people and the military lower tiers)., This could be Envy's... a "perfect" chimera.


Hey thanks. smile.gif I'm not sure about it but it seems an idea, since I did get the impression they were all made for different reasons... "Ultimate Shield," "Ultimate Lance," etc. Though Envy doesn't get an "ultimate" prefix that we've seen and doesn't seem to be held in high respect among his "siblings" either, so I could see him as being a BOTCHED creation that wound up with powers that were useful sorta by accident. It seems logical that any endeavor that revolved around the use of a Philosopher's Stone would wind up inevitably corrupted and perverted from its intention because of the inherent twistedness that goes into the making of the Philosopher's Stone itself... Father tried to make the Doors of Truth, but wound up with a bottomless pit of blood and darkness. Perhaps Father tried to create a chimera with all human components to be an ultimate human hybrid, but wound up with a hideous monster that could only EMULATE humans.

As for Ling vs. Envy.... oh damn it, no, I understand what you're saying, and incidentally nice detective work there, I'd forgotten that but it sounds right (I don't have time to double-check all that, but I'm taking your word for it since it does ring a bell) it's just that I'm doing this poorly. The underlying arguement I've been (badly) trying to work with is this: the comment that "that thing is a monster" goes nicely in hand with Pride's comments to Wrath about humans in 49, "remember that humans consider us monsters." The implication of Pride's comments was that humans would see homunculi as evil/demonic whether fairly or not, with the emphasis on the unfairly. Thus long-term cooperation (or even mere coexistance) between humans and homunculi was impossible. Pride's comments make the homunculi as a group somewhat sympathetic, and cooperation is exactly what Ed wants/needs from Envy just now. I would have guessed Ling's present function as most likely being the voice of the opposing viewpoint, argued from the perspective of someone who is sympathetic and understandable. It doesn't seem to work quite as well if Ling's main reason for calling Envy a monster is because he doesn't want to feel guilty about killing the people inside... Though I suppose that might be a bit cliche and/or obvious for him to be exhibiting knee-jerk prejudice (...towards someone who calls him "squinty eyes," no less), I figured at least he had good reasons... and it wouldn't have to matter whether or not he was right about Envy himself being, well, pretty much a monster no matter what his actual origins, since Envy does also reflect on the homunculi as a group and were Ling to be right in that case, it would make the future concept of reconcilliation just that much more difficult for any "redeemable homunculi" that were to come along. 'Cept maybe for Gluttony. (I still think he's doomed, but that's more of a "hunch" then anything I can back up at ALL.)



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Sensenic
post Nov 6 2005, 12:08 PM
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QUOTE(Tyoria @ Nov 6 2005, 12:04 PM) [snapback]309812[/snapback]

Oh, god, I am SO sorry for this delay! Life has been kicking my ass lately. At this rate I will be lucky to get one more post in before chapter 53, and after that I will have a guest staying for two weeks and have even LESS time.

Oh... sad.gif
So much for the discussions...
QUOTE(Tyoria @ Nov 6 2005, 12:04 PM) [snapback]309812[/snapback]

QUOTE
I guess they mean that either he'd pee in his pants when suggested to do it or, rather, that he wouldn't be able to come back, like poor Al...


I lean towards the former...

laugh.gif
QUOTE(Tyoria @ Nov 6 2005, 12:04 PM) [snapback]309812[/snapback]

QUOTE
Nice one! Could be, yeah. If all hommunculi have a specific reason to be (just like Gluttony was made to be an access to the doors of Truth -failed- and Wrath -probably- to rule Amestris without arising suspicions within the people and the military lower tiers)., This could be Envy's... a "perfect" chimera.


Hey thanks. smile.gif I'm not sure about it but it seems an idea, since I did get the impression they were all made for different reasons... "Ultimate Shield," "Ultimate Lance," etc. Though Envy doesn't get an "ultimate" prefix that we've seen and doesn't seem to be held in high respect among his "siblings" either, so I could see him as being a BOTCHED creation that wound up with powers that were useful sorta by accident. It seems logical that any endeavor that revolved around the use of a Philosopher's Stone would wind up inevitably corrupted and perverted from its intention because of the inherent twistedness that goes into the making of the Philosopher's Stone itself... Father tried to make the Doors of Truth, but wound up with a bottomless pit of blood and darkness. Perhaps Father tried to create a chimera with all human components to be an ultimate human hybrid, but wound up with a hideous monster that could only EMULATE humans.

Yeeep! That's different stuff -I believe-. One thing'd be the purpose they were made for (in case they were), and another, their power. At least to some point... I think they're related, but not the same.

For example, Wrath would've been made to rule the country and the power of the "Ultimate Eye" would've been given to him in order to be able to win every battle without needing to regenerate, which would look... erm... "rather suspicious" in front of everyone happy.gifU, and thus rise in the Hierarchy faster, as he certainly did.
But, then we have Gluttony, whose purpose had been to be an access to the Gates of True Knowledge and failed, but, with the Failed Gates inside of him, he gained his power of... eh... "Ultimate Stomach"? unsure.gif and became useful to "dispose" of the unwanted remains (of ANY kind).
So, the hommunculi's power and purpose, while related, be different, me thinks.

And, as for your theory on Envy, you could be right, it could be as you say. We'll see.
QUOTE(Tyoria @ Nov 6 2005, 12:04 PM) [snapback]309812[/snapback]

As for Ling vs. Envy.... <etc>

Oh... oh, I finally see what you meant! Yeah, since his talks with Envy and even some dialog from before, yeah, I guess you could say Ling is on the 'closed' human side, just like Envy'd be the same in the hommunculi's side, Ed in the 'open' human side and (apparently) Wrath in the 'open' hommunculi's side (he's the closest one to humans, after all, in all the ways). Actually I have high hopes of him becoming good... or had, because after reading Arakawa's comment on how she wanted (and she really does) to point out the difference between Bradley and Mustang on the subordinates' lifes' topic, I'm afraid she may keep him "evil" after all.

Back on topic, we could put it as: (Human) People, such as Mustang and Ling, disregard hommunculi as being naturally evil and "lower" than mankind... That pisses off the hommunculi, who also generalize and think all humans think the same way and therefore despise them. While on the other side you have Ed and Al, who appreciate and respect life and living beings on a broader view (Ed, because of Al's current state, probably, as stated by Pinako, and Al because of Greed's gang), and who "classify" only the individuals, and only according to their actions, not their nature... This is how you have a racial/definition of a human/living being conflict here too... A usual topic. I point you to Monster again, since it also discusses this. happy.gif Or Star Trek, The Next Generation with Data, for that matter.

But, I still believe that, after sensing those "humans" from Envy and seeing Ed's reaction towards them, Ling has started to doubt his extremist point of view. And, as I said, keeps repeating it to himself in order to survive.
But now, with the possibility of cooperation coming into light hope is born... Maybe...


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Michiyo-
post May 29 2011, 02:17 PM
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First time FMA manga readers, please post your thoughts and discussions on chapter 52 here. smile.gif


Those who have already read further chapters are also welcome to join the discussions, but please do not post any future chapter content on this thread.

This thread is Spoiler Party thread for chapter 52 content, meaning, posters do not have to use Spoiler tags while posting about chapter 52 content on this thread. smile.gif


For the reading reference, please send a PM to A Pierrot's Aria and ask for "Reading Reference Assistance for week 47."
(For more detailed explanation on this, please read Tombow's post here.)

Thank you, A Pierrot's Aria, for all your help!! ^^


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post May 29 2011, 02:19 PM
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