HAGANE NO RENKINJUTSUSHI
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Abortion, I'm serious...
Are you for or against abortion?
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«°~Envy™~°»
post Jun 28 2005, 09:53 AM
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WhiteMike

to your first part about the rapist situation even thou i already stated half the reason on this part on my first post in here, about shouldn't murder a kid over someone else's mistake

Sure yes he would be a rapist son, and no the mother doesn't have to give the fathers name, all she has to tell them is the fact she was raped, i don't care if she was raped i'm sorry it happend to her but that still isn't an excuse to murder a kid, give the kid a chance to make a living for his/her self

now about the science crap about how we can predict weather to save yourself n so on if we know ahead of time that it may kill the mother to have the baby,

once again here we go the life of the new born baby or the life of the mother, any self respecting mother ofcourse would choose the life of the baby over her own for one, I myself yes there is no way out of this your going to lose one or the other, sad to say i Myself ain't sure if i was put in this situation I ain't hundred percent sure what I wold do, but in all truthfullness i hope i make the decistion to choose the kid the mother


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phoenix dying
post Jun 28 2005, 10:06 AM
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But doesn't that all go back to the point that it should be up to the mother. Let it hang on her mind for the rest of her life.


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NightMistress
post Jun 28 2005, 10:10 AM
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QUOTE(Envy's lil' miniskirt @ Jun 27 2005, 01:46 PM)
It should be legal regardless. 

Some people should not be parents either because they are complete asshats and have no business trying to raise another human being or because they may have a genetic disease and the child they bring into the world would have a short and painful life.

Plus no woman should be made to have a child, imagine how the child would feel being brough up by somone who resented it because their mother was forced into parenthood.

As most of you know I can go on and on about this but I'll just leave the short answer for now.

QUOTE(Quistis)
Isn't there also debate on when a fetus is considered "human"? Some say it is already a human on the moment of conception, and some say it doesn't count as a human being until it shows consciousness in the womb, or takes on the form of what resembles a human.


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Well, if the woman didn't want the kid by the time it was born, she could always put it up for adoption.

I am not saying that abortion shouldn't be legal, I think that it should, I'm just saying my personal attitude about it.

I have friends that have gotten multiple ones. One of them decided to keep her 4th baby and now regrets having got rid of the other ones.

Abortion however does contribute to keeping the population from spiraling out of control more than it already is.

I know that my post seems pretty mixed on the idea and that's pretty much because I am as well. Eventhough I say it should be legal doesn't mean I support it in every case. Heck, cigarrettes are legal (and should be) but I don't support smoking.


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WhiteMike
post Jun 28 2005, 11:53 AM
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QUOTE
to your first part about the rapist situation even thou i already stated half the reason on this part on my first post in here, about shouldn't murder a kid over someone else's mistake

How is it someone elses mistake that a girl gets raped? A MISTAKE (definition): 1.An error or fault resulting from defective judgment, deficient knowledge, or carelessness.
2.A misconception or misunderstanding.
Does rape really fall into one of those catagories?
QUOTE
Sure yes he would be a rapist son, and no the mother doesn't have to give the fathers name, all she has to tell them is the fact she was raped, i don't care if she was raped i'm sorry it happend to her but that still isn't an excuse to murder a kid, give the kid a chance to make a living for his/her self

Usually, when a couple decides to have a child, or even before the have sex, they check to make sure that neither of them are carrying any recessive genetic disease. When a woman gets raped, who knows what this "man" has, and what has he passed on to the child or even the mother. You seem to be focusing so intently on the idea of abortion being wrong, that you are turning your eyes away from what has actually happened. She was RAPED, she most likely doesn't want, or even wants to bear to look at the rapists child. By saying that its just an excuse to murder a kid, from a rape victim, thats just damn ignorant.
QUOTE
once again here we go the life of the new born baby or the life of the mother, any self respecting mother ofcourse would choose the life of the baby over her own for one, I myself yes there is no way out of this your going to lose one or the other, sad to say i Myself ain't sure if i was put in this situation I ain't hundred percent sure what I wold do, but in all truthfullness i hope i make the decistion to choose the kid the mother

lmao, well, I suppose that this is your own choice to sacrifice yourself. Don't expect anyone sane to find this heroic. Instead of trying to have another child, you will kill yourself, so that your child will live. So, that child will grow up without a mother just because you felt that, I don't know, this was the best child you could make, or that you would never be able to do it again? I mean, come on! You have sex again and make another one! I know that sounds kind of crude, but your actually doing the child more harm by not having it raised by a mother figure. If you want to aimlessly kill yourself, just do it yourself, before you ruin the live of your child. OR, you could abort the child, and try again at a later time. Like I have said before, it is your choice to "kill yourself" or not, but don't expect anyone to shed tears for your stupidity.


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Envy's lil...
post Jun 28 2005, 12:13 PM
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QUOTE(Lord Odenetheus @ Jun 28 2005, 03:50 AM)
Why not just stop having sex? It's just a human pleasure act, after all. Chastity is a good way to solve the issue.
[snapback]201371[/snapback]



Chasity doesn't always work. Human beings are sexual animals and when they are younger their hormones are more likely to take control of them. It is unrealistic to expect everyone to pratice abstance successfully.

QUOTE(Envy)
well i say this about that, if they are crazy enough to put there own life on the line to kill another, it's there problem they want to be idiots and kill another life, and murder another life, nothing better to risk then your own life to do so right, I hope they make abortion illegal again, yes that may sound sick and sad but i don't care, it's just as sick and sad as thinking of killing a lil kid


First off let me say I don't believe a fetus is the same as a grown sentient adult. I don't see it as a human yet. I don't believe it has a soul yet because look at how easily women can miscarry or re-absorb the fetus back into the body.

That's a very compassionate stance you have there Envy. What if it was someone you cared about like a sister or good friend, maybe even a lover that had to go through that for some reason. Would you want them to die as well?

A lot of people here just see this issue in black and white and I doubt have read any articles about what these woman went through to led up to their decision to terminate their pregnancys. Oh, they should just stop having sex you say. Like I said above humans are sexual beings and they also make mistakes.

What I really think is sick is all these christians saying how the mother should die because she because she had to abort and the precious lump of cells in her uterus is the only thing worth saving.

Is that your kettle Mr black?

QUOTE(NightMistress)
Abortion however does contribute to keeping the population from spiraling out of control more than it already is.


The problem is that even in this day and age birth control is often times looked at as something only sluts use and is often times against some religions. If people were truely educated about birth control the need for abortion would go way down. But, since it is taboo for some they go ahead and do the deed without protection and a lot of times have to sneak off and have an abortion that could of been prevented.

I read an article reciently about a woman who got a perscription for the morning after pill the pharmicist denied her prescription based only on the pharmicists religious views. The pregnancy took and she had to have an abortion because she could not afford another child. Fundie parmicists are really starting to stick their nose into complete strangers business due to their belief system. And women who want to be responsible are the ones to suffer.

I wrote a whole article about it here.

Click on the Fundie Farmicists article.
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Carnal Malefacto...
post Jun 28 2005, 12:18 PM
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It's not alive until it can live outside the womb.

And really, I'm a little surprised that there aren't more vegans in the pro-life contingent.


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Envy's lil...
post Jun 28 2005, 12:32 PM
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QUOTE(What @ no bacon?,Jun 28 2005, 12:20 PM)
And really, I'm a little surprised that there aren't more vegans in the pro-life contingent.
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Hehe

Wrong life I guess.
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Lord Odenetheus
post Jun 28 2005, 01:47 PM
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I'm vegetarian... I eat seafood, though not the more sentient fish.

I think abortion is bad due to the fact that people should realise that it is THEIR fault for not controlling their own bodies, and being weak-minded enough to forget protection when having some morally repugnant sessions... disgusting.


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Envy's lil...
post Jun 28 2005, 02:09 PM
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QUOTE(Lord Odenetheus @ Jun 28 2005, 01:47 PM)
I'm vegetarian... I eat seafood, though not the more sentient fish.


All fish are sentient. Unless there's some kind of veggie fish I haven't heard of. Also I don't consider someone a vegetarian if they eat fish. They are still eating an animal.

QUOTE(Lord Odenetheus @ Jun 28 2005, 01:47 PM)
I think abortion is bad due to the fact that people should realise that it is THEIR fault for not controlling their own bodies, and being weak-minded enough to forget protection when having some morally repugnant sessions... disgusting.
[snapback]201550[/snapback]




What about people who did use protection but it failed and what if they are married therefore not committing any sins in the eyes of the lord sort of speak. You can't expect everyone to act the same as you just like I can't expect everyone to act the same as me.

Once again, sexuality is part of human nature that is a fact and sometimes it leads to disasterous results. Not everyone who has sex is weak minded and has problems controlling their bodies and I find it to be a very close minded view of humanity.

EDIT:
I posted this in another thread and wanted to post it here for the new people since the orignal thread was buired months ago:

I used to feel the same way about abortion that a lot of you here do until I started reading several accounts of child abuse that made my blood run cold. I used to be a christian and bought into the whole 'abortion in murder' crap until I started reading about babies being thrown in outhouses and dumpsters alive, basically having post natal abortions performed on them after they became sentient beings. Children being horribly abused by their drugged out parents having things done to them such as being pimped out for drug money. Then there was the account I read recently about a woman who grabbed her toddler by the ankles and slamed her repeatedly into the groud while screaming "You runined my life, you ruined my life!"

Now, I defy anyone to read things like this and tell me abortion should be illegal with a straight face.
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WhiteMike
post Jun 28 2005, 07:40 PM
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QUOTE(Quistis88 @ Jun 27 2005, 12:21 PM)
Isn't there also debate on when a fetus is considered "human"?  Some say it is already a human on the moment of conception, and some say it doesn't count as a human being until it shows consciousness in the womb, or takes on the form of what resembles a human.
[snapback]200728[/snapback]


I think right now, its like in the second trimester, you can't abort it, legally. Because in the second trimester it has too many human qualities, blah blah blah.


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Zarpia
post Jun 28 2005, 07:43 PM
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QUOTE(«°~Envy™~°» @ Jun 28 2005, 06:23 AM)
and I'm still a virgin and I don't plan on having sex till i get married
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I didn't had to knew that ph34r.gif (just joking)


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NightMistress
post Jun 28 2005, 08:20 PM
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QUOTE(Envy's lil' miniskirt @ Jun 28 2005, 03:13 PM)
QUOTE(Lord Odenetheus @ Jun 28 2005, 03:50 AM)
Why not just stop having sex? It's just a human pleasure act, after all. Chastity is a good way to solve the issue.
[snapback]201371[/snapback]



Chasity doesn't always work. Human beings are sexual animals and when they are younger their hormones are more likely to take control of them. It is unrealistic to expect everyone to pratice abstance successfully.

QUOTE(Envy)
well i say this about that, if they are crazy enough to put there own life on the line to kill another, it's there problem they want to be idiots and kill another life, and murder another life, nothing better to risk then your own life to do so right, I hope they make abortion illegal again, yes that may sound sick and sad but i don't care, it's just as sick and sad as thinking of killing a lil kid


First off let me say I don't believe a fetus is the same as a grown sentient adult. I don't see it as a human yet. I don't believe it has a soul yet because look at how easily women can miscarry or re-absorb the fetus back into the body.

That's a very compassionate stance you have there Envy. What if it was someone you cared about like a sister or good friend, maybe even a lover that had to go through that for some reason. Would you want them to die as well?

A lot of people here just see this issue in black and white and I doubt have read any articles about what these woman went through to led up to their decision to terminate their pregnancys. Oh, they should just stop having sex you say. Like I said above humans are sexual beings and they also make mistakes.

What I really think is sick is all these christians saying how the mother should die because she because she had to abort and the precious lump of cells in her uterus is the only thing worth saving.

Is that your kettle Mr black?

QUOTE(NightMistress)
Abortion however does contribute to keeping the population from spiraling out of control more than it already is.


The problem is that even in this day and age birth control is often times looked at as something only sluts use and is often times against some religions. If people were truely educated about birth control the need for abortion would go way down. But, since it is taboo for some they go ahead and do the deed without protection and a lot of times have to sneak off and have an abortion that could of been prevented.

I read an article reciently about a woman who got a perscription for the morning after pill the pharmicist denied her prescription based only on the pharmicists religious views. The pregnancy took and she had to have an abortion because she could not afford another child. Fundie parmicists are really starting to stick their nose into complete strangers business due to their belief system. And women who want to be responsible are the ones to suffer.

I wrote a whole article about it here.

Click on the Fundie Farmicists article.
[snapback]201513[/snapback]


First off I agree with you on everything, but I'm going to get to your reply to me at hand.

If birth control is against their religion, you'd think abortion would be too. Ah religion can be so confusing at times.

I do agree that learning more about sex and proper precautions are the only way to keep it to a minimum. Having a president in office that wants to promote abstinence instead (and was probably anything BUT that in his day) will only worsen the deal because sex is natural and since humans have gotten the taste of the non-puritan way of life, it is NEVER going to go away.

You are just NOW reading those types of articles? Oh man you don't know the half of it. Several months ago this girl who claimed to have been raped the night before went into a pharmacy to get herself a morning after pill. The pharmacist REFUSED to give it to her because it was against her religious views.

Then for your regular birth control pills (or patch), there have been stories of doctors who refuse to fill it for the same reason. My feelings on that issue are simple though. If you have some type of religious reservation for any part of the job you're doing, YOU DON'T NEED TO HAVE THAT JOB!!! This person (who you couldn't PAY me to call a professional) trying to force their religious beliefs on someone would be equally appalled (and probably unwilling to listen) if it were the other way around and that client forced some religious belief on them (ie: their religion doesn't like cars so the pharmacist has to walk 20 miles home). It is completely REDICULOUS and something needs to be done about that rather quickly.

These stories are extremely angering to me and I am SO happy that this isn't a problem for women around here. They promote it a LOT. Birth control pills can be EXPENSIVE depending on what type of insurance you have and you need to take it on a set schedule and it absolutely CANNOT be thrown off. It isn't used strictly for sluts either. Sexually active does NOT make you a slut. Furthermore, many women have it soley for period regulation and pain relief. There is a doctor against using it for these purposes as well (it was a male). He believed that praying would make the pain go away. I'm sorry but a man with a solution like that (who is NEVER going to experience these things) would be lucky if he were the LAST person that I am refer to for this issue. *If* I pray on it (and it will most likely be prayer that my pills kick in), it's because of my own faith, not his.


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Envy's lil...
post Jun 28 2005, 10:34 PM
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QUOTE(NightMistress @ Jun 28 2005, 08:20 PM)
You are just NOW reading those types of articles? Oh man you don't know the half of it.  Several months ago this girl who claimed to have been raped the night before went into a pharmacy to get herself a morning after pill.  The pharmacist REFUSED to give it to her because it was against her religious views. 



Oh, no no no I've been hearing about this for quite some time. I only just wrote something about it.


QUOTE(NightMistress @ Jun 28 2005, 08:20 PM)
Furthermore, many women have it soley for period regulation and pain relief.

There is a doctor  against using it for these purposes as well (it was a male).  He believed that praying would make the pain go away.  I'm sorry but a man with a solution like that (who is NEVER going to experience these things) would be lucky if he were the LAST person that I am refer to for this issue.  *If* I pray on it (and it will most likely be prayer that my pills kick in), it's because of my own faith, not his.


I was on the pill for that very reason and I was a virgin at the time.

And no, praying doesn't make your menstral cramps go away.
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NightMistress
post Jun 28 2005, 10:59 PM
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QUOTE(Envy's lil' miniskirt @ Jun 29 2005, 01:34 AM)
Oh, no no no I've been hearing about this for quite some time.  I only just wrote something about it.


Oh you know what? I misread your statement where you linked me to the article. I totally missed the "I wrote" part. I was just thinking you were linking to some other one. It's a good article by the way. Glad to hear that the news of this madness is circulating.


QUOTE(Envy's lil' miniskirt @ Jun 29 2005, 01:34 AM)
I was on the pill for that very reason and I was a virgin at the time.



Same here about the pill. When the doctors realized that I was anemic, they made sure that I was on it right away (it would only come once every 3 or 4 months and last for 4-5 weeks). And futhermore, I literally could not move at times because of the pain and I am NOT kidding. If I could write an ode to the pill, I would.


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Lord Odenetheus
post Jun 29 2005, 12:29 AM
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You mention that not all those who wih abortion have comitted a sinful act. Well, those who are christian (which I am not, by the way) are supposed to be practising chastity. The marriage was created in the old jew religion, since their "task" was to fill the earth. The christians have marriage for those who cannot control their lusts.

Anyone know what Augustinus said? "Grant me chastity, but not yet". He had one of the worst sexual drives recorded in history, yet he managed later on. Shouldn't that mean that everyone can manage?


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