HAGANE NO RENKINJUTSUSHI
HAGANE NO RENKINJUTSUSHI
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Ishbal War Vs. Iraq War, And Other Analogies To Fma Story, Post your FMA analogies here!! ^^
vazel
post Mar 3 2005, 04:22 AM
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if the ishbal war or anything in fma is meant to relate to any real life events it's to european colonialism. certainly not to 21st century american politics.


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Mortari
post Mar 4 2005, 01:20 PM
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I personally think that it has more to do with the World Wars than anything else.


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post Mar 7 2005, 08:34 PM
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QUOTE(Mortari @ Mar 4 2005, 01:20 PM)
I personally think that it has more to do with the World Wars than anything else.
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I dont know about that. There are too many striking similarities to the IRAQ WAR and the ISHBAL war. Both the fictional Ishbal people and the Iraqi's have similar beliefs. (Believe in one God, architectural, alchemy is the devils work/ black magic is the devils work.) Especially in the current events where the ISHBAL refugees have to suffer because of one extremist and that is SCAR. Innocent civilians are suffering because of Osama bin laden as well.
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Toby-Chan
post Mar 16 2005, 04:01 PM
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Just because there are similarities, dosen't necessarily mean it's allegorical. But just because it isn't allegorical, dosen't mean it's not applicable.

I don't think FMA was mean to be a symbolic protest in any way shape or form. The Ishbal War is not Iraq, Vietnam, or any world war. It is, essentially, any war. There dosen't have to be a historic or modern parallel to illustrate the horrors of humankind in such situations.

This seems similar to when Tolkien was accused of racist allegory in Lord of The Rings, or that it was theorized that his series was symbolic for the rize of hitler, or that the ring stood for nuclear weapons. However, Tolkien said himself that he dislikes allegory, however he supports applicability. The difference being, he wasn't selling propaganda with which to tell a historical tale, but it might be clear to anyone that the ring has equivalent effects to great power. Those who have it become obsessed and sick with their infatuation. They desire it, becoming less and less of the good people they once were, just as there are humans, even the best intentioned ones who become corrupt with their power and greed, from the corporate criminals of Wall-Street, down to the little kid hall monitor who abuses his priveleges for the first time. It's not a shallow retelling, but a complex and less preachy way of portraying that element of human nature.

In the same way, the horror of war and violence in general is reflected upon in Fullmetal Alchemist, and that is meaningful enough.


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yukiroche
post Mar 20 2005, 01:01 AM
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I personally think this is sort of related to WWII and the holocaust. That's probably why the movie is linked closly to history of WWII because they're both similar.


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xyzknight
post Mar 22 2005, 12:01 PM
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It can't be the Jewish Holocaust, because (spoiler) on episode 50, Hohenheim said "many people have died on this world, and many many more will die" so he either knows about what's gonna happen or...well, knows what will happen. Also, the number of soldiers who died for the Kenja no Ishi (Philosopher's Stone, I just love the japanese name) which Envy said was much lower than the number of jewish people who died on the Holocaust.
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Guest_Guest_*
post Apr 13 2005, 04:27 PM
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Hey, I wasn't the only one who thought about Iraq while watching FMA!
I am really glad to see people talking about something I thought
was wrong^^

Well, you see, I would be really rude if there's any person who likes
President Bush, but still, i have been thinking what bush has been
doing was wrong. I supported Kerry before last election, and most of
my friends who didn't really like Bush supported him, too. They just
kinda knew it wasn't right to kill anybody.

Remember whenever military in FMA tried to kill all the Ishbals?
That kinda remined of what US Army had done to Iraqi people.
And when Ed found out Homunculues(im not sure about spelling-_-wink.gif
had been trying to cause problems between military and Ishbals
to get what they wanted, philosopher's stone or whatever, it was like,
Bush pointing at me with his finger, " Hey i wanna have war with
Iraq 'cause i want all their oil!!!! "... i dont know why, but it was like that.

I think, i don't know if i am true, the author tried to give us
messages about the major issues we are having in modern days
by FMA. There are so many thing we take notice as similar in FMA,
not ony Iraq war, but many other things. Actually, we have been
convinced by her work, haven't we?
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Attic Light
post Apr 13 2005, 05:47 PM
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Of course this is the first thread i read...

How can you compare what happened at Ishbal as the same as what the U.S troops are doing in iraq?

1) The alchemists circled Ishbal, and with souped up alchemy, leveled the place down, killing civilians, militia, soldiers, whoever got in the way. I mean look at what the Crimson Alchemist, Roy or that one buffed up guy did... Now, did the U.S surround Baghdad with battalions and batallions of Artillery and completly annihilate the city? Did they quarintine artillery strikes to 'remove' potential hostiles. Yes. Did they scream in with F-14s and mow down anyone they saw in the streets, civilian, soldier, friend or foe? No.

2) When Ishbal's main defences fell, the State soldiers were sent in, and they most definitly did not differentiate between soldier or civilian, they lit up anything that moved up. Most were inexperienced, I mean, who shakes with fear when they're looking at a defenceless civilian...and the soldier has a gun? Cmon!

3) Dont hate on bush! Sure, when we entered Iraq the place wasnt that bad. But I'm thinking that the State's actions in FMA center more around what happened in Rwandan. The State massacred the Ishballians, and the world stood by and watched.

little OT:

Do you know of the Rwandan Genocide of 1994? One million people killed in 100 days. 1,000,000 children, mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, loved ones, cherished ones...all these lives taken in 100 days. And know what Clinton did?

Nothing.

Sure there are inncoent casualties in war...but then, it is war.

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Mortari
post Apr 16 2005, 08:22 AM
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All I meant to say is that, since the worlds are parallel to each other and since the people in Ed's world have their equivalent with the people in our world, so wouldn't events have their equivalent too?? Considering the time frame, I think that World War I would be the equivalent. I don't really think that they meant to do something with the Iraq War thing. ph34r.gif

Oh, and BTW, I happen to be ok with Bush. At least he's trying. Specially when a lot of people hate him right about now.


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hitokiri
post Apr 16 2005, 09:57 AM
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why do people have to overanalyze and look for hidden meanings where there are none? you could compare the ishbal war to just about ANY conflict. WWII with the concentration camps, the native american exterminations, even the crusades... you name a war and there's a possible comparison. its just like the morons that thought the LOTR novels were a social comentary about war... it, just like FMA, wasn't.... ITS JUST A FREAKIN KIDDIE STORY!!!


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Hilde Knight
post Apr 17 2005, 11:24 AM
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QUOTE(hitokiri @ Apr 16 2005, 10:57 AM)
why do people have to overanalyze and look for hidden meanings where there are none? you could compare the ishbal war to just about ANY conflict. WWII with the concentration camps, the native american exterminations, even the crusades... you name a war and there's a possible comparison. its just like the morons that thought the LOTR novels were a social comentary about war... it, just like FMA, wasn't.... ITS JUST A FREAKIN KIDDIE STORY!!!
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Holy hell. Am I really coming off as if I think the creators of FMA were trying to make a statement about Iraq because that was by no means my intent. I said that I found similarities between the two events, and for me the similarities stuck out more than the other wars. Other people are seeing more instances of other wars while others are seeing nothing at all.

I'm sorry for overanalyzing and apparently causing some sort of emotional distress because of this. I enjoy doing this type of thing. Overanalyzing can sometimes make mindless forms of entertainment not so brainless and I like discussing these types of things.

On an ending note, I find it hard to believe for anyone to brand FMA as a kiddie show. I'm pretty sure it wasn't exactly, you know, targeted towards 10-year-olds.


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Philosopher'...
post Apr 17 2005, 12:25 PM
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QUOTE(Toby-Chan @ Mar 16 2005, 04:01 PM)
Just because there are similarities, dosen't necessarily mean it's allegorical.  But just because it isn't allegorical, dosen't mean it's not applicable.

I don't think FMA was mean to be a symbolic protest in any way shape or form.  The Ishbal War is not Iraq, Vietnam, or any world war.  It is, essentially, any war.  There dosen't have to be a historic or modern parallel to illustrate the horrors of humankind in such situations. 

This seems similar to when Tolkien was accused of racist allegory in Lord of The Rings, or that it was theorized that his series was symbolic for the rize of hitler, or that the ring stood for nuclear weapons.  However, Tolkien said himself that he dislikes allegory, however he supports applicability.  The difference being, he wasn't selling propaganda with which to tell a historical tale, but it might be clear to anyone that the ring has equivalent effects to great power.  Those who have it become obsessed and sick with their infatuation.  They desire it, becoming less and less of the good people they once were, just as there are humans, even the best intentioned ones who become corrupt with their power and greed, from the corporate criminals of Wall-Street, down to the little kid hall monitor who abuses his priveleges for the first time.  It's not a shallow retelling, but a complex and less preachy way of portraying that element of human nature.

In the same way, the horror of war and violence in general is reflected upon in Fullmetal Alchemist, and that is meaningful enough.
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QUOTE(hitokiri @ Apr 16 2005, 09:57 AM)
why do people have to overanalyze and look for hidden meanings where there are none? you could compare the ishbal war to just about ANY conflict. WWII with the concentration camps, the native american exterminations, even the crusades... you name a war and there's a possible comparison. its just like the morons that thought the LOTR novels were a social comentary about war... it, just like FMA, wasn't.... ITS JUST A FREAKIN KIDDIE STORY!!!
[snapback]153925[/snapback]



I'm with these two guys on this, it doesn't have to have a message, except, that FMA is not just a kiddie story. Full Metal Alchemist has some heavy themes and I wouldn't show it to kids as it might give them nightmares. (OMG! Nina was turned into that thing and was exploded by the scary man!)

In fact, LOTR isn't a kiddie story either, its a VERY LONG series, its definately beyond grade school reading.

As was said in an essay about Ender's Game:
"One thing adolescent readers gain is that the book does not lend itself to the standard toolset of literary analysis. Find the metaphors and the symbols and what do you have? A few obvious and uninteresting observations, because this book is not about how cleverly the writer has encoded his "meaning... What distresses me is that there are actually teachers of literature who think that that is a useful and meaningful assignment, as if fiction were an essay in disguise, and fiction that is NOT an essay in disguise were not worth a serious reading."

Sometimes having a good story, that doesn't preach about which way you should live, is a virtue in itself. Ender's Game or FMA doesn't want to give you easy solutions and it doesn't need to either. Their main goal is to entertain mostly by the fact that you're too old to be watching "Snow White," wherein, the witches always die and where the white girl always gets to live happily ever after, simply because the fates conspire to make it so. The simple fact that you relate to the former and not the latter should speak volumes about the life you are living.

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hitokiri
post Apr 17 2005, 02:30 PM
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QUOTE(Philosopher's Stone @ Apr 17 2005, 03:25 PM)
In fact, LOTR isn't a kiddie story either, its a VERY LONG series, its definately beyond grade school reading.
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actually, if you look into it, you'll find out that the entire lotr series as well as the silmarillion were all originally nothing more than stories that tolkien created for his children as bedtime stories. sure the published version is a far more polished and refined version of these original stories, but it makes them children's stories nonetheless. just look at the basic structure and concept behind the story; its basically nothing more than an overly elaborate fairy tale archetype... even tolkien and his children all admited to this fact in various interviews...

and honestly if you can't finish this series by the time you complete 5th grade... you suck... just go out and sign up for votech now and save the educational institution time and frustration.


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Philosopher'...
post Apr 17 2005, 03:22 PM
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Bah, I probably read better than you did at 5th grade...

I didn't really bother with The Fellowship of the Ring, it was slowwww paced, and I got impatient. If I got bored with it, I assure you that most grade school kids would too. It really isn't that it wasn't readable, I just wasn't entertained.
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The Judge
post Apr 20 2005, 03:44 AM
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I've got to agree with some of the others in that the Ishbal War is just a depiction of any war and as such will have similarities with Iraq of course. The race, beliefs etc. are purely coincidental I feel. If you look hard enough you can always see something. It's been done with Shakespeare. It's been done with LOTR. Hell it's been done with Star Wars.
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